Discussion:
slow telnet response?
(too old to reply)
William Byrne
2005-06-15 12:46:21 UTC
Permalink
Has anyone else been experiencing brutally slow telnet response lately?

Composing a message in Elm there can be a couple seconds between a
keystroke and the cursor moving. I'm telnetting from a very fast
connection.

Rather frustrating.

thanks,
Bill
Mark Mielke
2005-06-15 13:10:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Byrne
Has anyone else been experiencing brutally slow telnet response lately?
Composing a message in Elm there can be a couple seconds between a
keystroke and the cursor moving. I'm telnetting from a very fast
connection.
Rather frustrating.
It's as fast as it's ever been from here. What does your traceroute show?

As I include below, I'm seeing 26 milliseconds (0.026 seconds - hardly
noticeable) to Carleton / smeagol.ncf.ca. It gets wierd from hop 10 to
hop 15 as I believe Carleton and/or NCF blocks the ICMP packets that
ping and traceroute use to do their work. I'm surprised I'm actually
getting past hop 9 at all.

If you can run traceroute yourself, you can identify the likely culprit
in your network path that is causing you the slowness.

Cheers,
mark


$ traceroute telnet.ncf.ca
traceroute to smeagol.ncf.ca (134.117.136.48), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets
1 66.11.177.185 (66.11.177.185) 1.160 ms 1.434 ms 1.970 ms
2 66.11.190.1 (66.11.190.1) 17.337 ms 17.223 ms 19.407 ms
3 c3550-1.istop.com (66.11.167.166) 16.813 ms 16.298 ms 16.740 ms
4 c3550-2.istop.com (66.11.167.167) 18.808 ms 17.391 ms 17.449 ms
5 gw-orano.torontointernetxchange.net (198.32.245.40) 16.535 ms 16.276 ms 16.893 ms
6 DIST2-TORO-GE1-2.IP.orion.on.ca (66.97.16.126) 17.379 ms 18.670 ms 16.798 ms
7 DIST1-KNTN-GE1-1.IP.orion.on.ca (66.97.16.89) 22.962 ms 22.928 ms 21.989 ms
8 DIST1-OTWA-GE1-2.IP.orion.on.ca (66.97.16.73) 25.697 ms 26.451 ms 24.840 ms
9 CARLETON-ORION-RNE.DIST1-OTWA.IP.orion.on.ca (66.97.23.142) 27.142 ms 25.751 ms 25.624 ms
10 * * *
11 * * *
12 * * *
13 smeagol.ncf.ca (134.117.136.48) 68.113 ms 34.653 ms 43.109 ms
14 smeagol.ncf.ca (134.117.136.48) 50.067 ms 26.527 ms 26.763 ms
15 smeagol.ncf.ca (134.117.136.48) 26.319 ms 26.995 ms 26.018 ms
--
***@mielke.cc / ***@ncf.ca / ***@nortel.com __________________________
. . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ |
| | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them...

http://mark.mielke.cc/
Creighton T. Paterson
2005-06-15 13:11:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Byrne
Has anyone else been experiencing brutally slow telnet response lately?
Composing a message in Elm there can be a couple seconds between a
keystroke and the cursor moving. I'm telnetting from a very fast
connection.
Rather frustrating.
I'm telnetted in at the moment, and have just written a somewhat lengthy
post <g> - no speed problems here.

Cheers.

--
C.T. Paterson, ***@freenet.carleton.ca
When e-mailing, include "waterloo" in the subject to bypass spam filters.
Michael Mason
2005-06-15 17:53:17 UTC
Permalink
And the only way I ever come in is via telnet. No speed issues in any
length of time I can recall...
Post by William Byrne
Has anyone else been experiencing brutally slow telnet response lately?
Composing a message in Elm there can be a couple seconds between a
keystroke and the cursor moving. I'm telnetting from a very fast
connection.
Rather frustrating.
thanks,
Bill
--
Michael "BullDog" Mason - ***@ncf.ca
M.L. Dante
2005-06-16 02:03:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Byrne
Has anyone else been experiencing brutally slow telnet response lately?
Yes!

In fact, it is very slow right this minute. Quite bad. This has gone on
for about a week, I would guess.

mld
Post by William Byrne
Composing a message in Elm there can be a couple seconds between a
keystroke and the cursor moving. I'm telnetting from a very fast
connection.
Rather frustrating.
thanks,
Bill
Brendan R. Wehrung
2005-06-16 06:07:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Byrne
Has anyone else been experiencing brutally slow telnet response lately?
Composing a message in Elm there can be a couple seconds between a
keystroke and the cursor moving. I'm telnetting from a very fast
connection.
Rather frustrating.
thanks,
Bill
Happens to me too. I hope this isn't the beginning of a campaign to drive
all us FreePort users crazy so we'll leave (or stop complaining) about the
possible conversion of NCF to a low-cost ISP.

Brendan
--
William R. Watt
2005-06-16 13:17:09 UTC
Permalink
I haven't noticed any slow response lateley with daily VT100 access to
FreePort via Procomm or Bitcom.

I'm on an old 486 computer now (9 am Thursday) running Windows 95 and some
sort of telnet program whose name and parentage are unkown to me. The
response time is good. Sorry I can't identify the distiguishing feature
which cases some telnet sessionsto run slow. I dial 520-1135 in VT100 mode.

If someone wants to list things to check I can try on this computer (whose
power supply is starting to smell of ozone and might not last much longer.
:( )
--
Graeme Beckett
2005-06-16 14:21:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by William R. Watt
If someone wants to list things to check I can try on this computer (whose
power supply is starting to smell of ozone and might not last much longer.
:( )
Check the power supply fan for functionality. Also the CPU fan if it has one.

Graeme
William R. Watt
2005-06-16 14:28:50 UTC
Permalink
Here are some possible causes of slow telnet response time.

First, you are sharing PPP access with all the colour graphics web
browsers. They can slow down response. I used dailup NCF PPP
access last night to check a website and response was very slow.

Second, you might dialup some other ISP and telnet from there to
FreePort. Response could be faster or slower than dialing up the
NCF with PPP access.

Third, you might have a high speed connection to some ISP which
would improve telnet response to FreePort.


In my opinion the best way to access FreePort is to dial up with
VT100 terminal access instead of PPP. You do not share response
time with all the PPP colour graphics web browsers and gargantuan
file downloaders. Uner Windows OS, terminal access would most
likely be the Hyperterminal program but I don't like it because
you only get a window, not the whole screen. I prefer to run DOS
communications programs like Procomm or Bitcom because they take
over the whole screen. For interactive communication I still
prefer my 2400 baud modem (which I'm using right now). For
transferring multiple files to my FreeNet webpage I do prefer a
faster modem and have Procomm running in DOS mode under Windows 95
on a 486 computer with a 33k modem connected at 19k bps which is
the fastest speed the old Procomm program can handle.

--
M.L. Dante
2005-06-16 15:10:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by William R. Watt
In my opinion the best way to access FreePort is to dial up with
VT100 terminal access instead of PPP. You do not share response
I have never used PPP. I do not use Hyperterminal. I use DOS Procomm.
Sometimes I get fast telnet access to the NCF, but other times, like
this week, it is slow, slow, slow, while I otherwise am speeding through the
internet both to websites (not the NCF) and to other telnet destinations.

Ofttimes my early morning visit is slow whereas the rest of the day access
is fast.

The most probably explanation, as far as I can see, is that somebody, or
some bodies, is/are using a lot of bandwidth for .... hmmmm maybe watching
a TV show on their computer(s). Or downloading (stealing?) lots of music.

Or .... some type of NCF maintenance is going on.

mld
Post by William R. Watt
time with all the PPP colour graphics web browsers and gargantuan
file downloaders. Uner Windows OS, terminal access would most
likely be the Hyperterminal program but I don't like it because
you only get a window, not the whole screen. I prefer to run DOS
communications programs like Procomm or Bitcom because they take
over the whole screen. For interactive communication I still
prefer my 2400 baud modem (which I'm using right now). For
transferring multiple files to my FreeNet webpage I do prefer a
faster modem and have Procomm running in DOS mode under Windows 95
on a 486 computer with a 33k modem connected at 19k bps which is
the fastest speed the old Procomm program can handle.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned
M.L. Dante
2005-06-16 15:14:00 UTC
Permalink
M.L. Dante (***@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) writes:

By the way, telnet access is NOT slow at the moment, although it was when
I posted that message earlier this morning.

mld
Post by M.L. Dante
Post by William R. Watt
In my opinion the best way to access FreePort is to dial up with
VT100 terminal access instead of PPP. You do not share response
I have never used PPP. I do not use Hyperterminal. I use DOS Procomm.
Sometimes I get fast telnet access to the NCF, but other times, like
this week, it is slow, slow, slow, while I otherwise am speeding through the
internet both to websites (not the NCF) and to other telnet destinations.
Ofttimes my early morning visit is slow whereas the rest of the day access
is fast.
The most probably explanation, as far as I can see, is that somebody, or
some bodies, is/are using a lot of bandwidth for .... hmmmm maybe watching
a TV show on their computer(s). Or downloading (stealing?) lots of music.
Or .... some type of NCF maintenance is going on.
mld
Post by William R. Watt
time with all the PPP colour graphics web browsers and gargantuan
file downloaders. Uner Windows OS, terminal access would most
likely be the Hyperterminal program but I don't like it because
you only get a window, not the whole screen. I prefer to run DOS
communications programs like Procomm or Bitcom because they take
over the whole screen. For interactive communication I still
prefer my 2400 baud modem (which I'm using right now). For
transferring multiple files to my FreeNet webpage I do prefer a
faster modem and have Procomm running in DOS mode under Windows 95
on a 486 computer with a 33k modem connected at 19k bps which is
the fastest speed the old Procomm program can handle.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned
William Byrne
2005-06-16 16:48:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by M.L. Dante
Post by William R. Watt
In my opinion the best way to access FreePort is to dial up with
VT100 terminal access instead of PPP. You do not share response
I have never used PPP. I do not use Hyperterminal. I use DOS Procomm.
Sometimes I get fast telnet access to the NCF, but other times, like
this week, it is slow, slow, slow, while I otherwise am speeding through the
internet both to websites (not the NCF) and to other telnet destinations.
From work I access freeport via telnet. At work we have a very fast
connection (at least T1, afaik). I can be downloading images (yes,
work-related ;-) and pages quite quickly, and still I'll try to compose a
message (or a reply) in Pico and will have a second or two - or lots more
- between hitting a key and seeing anything happen on the screen.

As with 'mld', at this immediate moment there's no problem - but the
slowdown definitely happens - sometimes many times in a week. Some days it
gets to the point where it's just not worth trying to type.

I don't recall if this happens when I'm dialing up (text only via Minicom)
from home.
Post by M.L. Dante
The most probably explanation, as far as I can see, is that somebody, or
some bodies, is/are using a lot of bandwidth for .... hmmmm maybe watching
a TV show on their computer(s). Or downloading (stealing?) lots of music.
But really though - how badly is that going to affect my sending of a
space, or a carriage return, or a single letter. As I said above,
sometimes there's a couple second wait for a single keystroke to register.

thanks,
Bill
Post by M.L. Dante
Or .... some type of NCF maintenance is going on.
mld
M.L. Dante
2005-06-16 22:03:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Byrne
Post by M.L. Dante
The most probably explanation, as far as I can see, is that somebody, or
some bodies, is/are using a lot of bandwidth for .... hmmmm maybe watching
a TV show on their computer(s). Or downloading (stealing?) lots of music.
But really though - how badly is that going to affect my sending of a
space, or a carriage return, or a single letter. As I said above,
sometimes there's a couple second wait for a single keystroke to register.
Timesharing. You're trying to get a letter in edgewise, but the other
procedures don't even stop for a breath.

BTW, at this moment, things are SLOW. Yet a few seconds ago it was ok.
Is it possible that this forum is being monitored in real time?

mld
Post by William Byrne
thanks,
Bill
Post by M.L. Dante
Or .... some type of NCF maintenance is going on.
mld
Mark Mielke
2005-06-16 17:04:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by M.L. Dante
Sometimes I get fast telnet access to the NCF, but other times, like
this week, it is slow, slow, slow, while I otherwise am speeding through the
internet both to websites (not the NCF) and to other telnet destinations.
There are many different backbones that your data could take. Most of them
are well resourced. Others, not so much. I've accessed major web sites from
my ISP only to see timeouts or bandwidth of 1Kbyte/s (slower than dial-up
modem speeds).
Post by M.L. Dante
Ofttimes my early morning visit is slow whereas the rest of the day access
is fast.
The most probably explanation, as far as I can see, is that somebody, or
some bodies, is/are using a lot of bandwidth for .... hmmmm maybe watching
a TV show on their computer(s). Or downloading (stealing?) lots of music.
Or .... some type of NCF maintenance is going on.
We need your traceroute information to have any idea at all! :-(

So, to separate it out - is it just telnet users who are seeing poor
latency, or is it dial-up direct to NCF users? For those with PPP direct
to NCF, there are alternative explanations as well. For example, if your
Windows machine is downloading the Windows updates in the background, then
your dial-up connection is having it's effective bandwidth split, or reduced.
Your connection may be fine, but there are bytes queued up between NCF and
you sending you security updates (which can be quite large and take days
to fully send).

If it is just telnet users - you need to use traceroute to isolate the
provider that is causing you the problems. This is something you can do
yourself to determine for yourself who the likely culprit is. It might
be NCF - but I haven't seen information to show that it is, and my own
experience disagrees with you.

Cheers,
mark
--
***@mielke.cc / ***@ncf.ca / ***@nortel.com __________________________
. . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ |
| | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them...

http://mark.mielke.cc/
William Byrne
2005-06-16 17:27:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Mielke
Post by M.L. Dante
Sometimes I get fast telnet access to the NCF, but other times, like
We need your traceroute information to have any idea at all! :-(
How can we obtain this info?

thanks,
Bill
William R. Watt
2005-06-16 18:07:32 UTC
Permalink
It could be a time of day issue.
I mostly login before noon.
I haven't noticed any slow FreePort response.
That's dialing up in text mode, not PPP with telnet.

--
Mark Mielke
2005-06-16 18:42:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Byrne
Post by Mark Mielke
Post by M.L. Dante
Sometimes I get fast telnet access to the NCF, but other times, like
We need your traceroute information to have any idea at all! :-(
How can we obtain this info?
On my Linux box, I just run 'traceroute':

$ traceroute telnet.ncf.ca
traceroute to smeagol.ncf.ca (134.117.136.48), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets
1 66.11.177.185 (66.11.177.185) 1.119 ms 0.923 ms 0.931 ms
2 66.11.190.1 (66.11.190.1) 28.004 ms 27.293 ms 15.032 ms
3 c3550-1.istop.com (66.11.167.166) 18.798 ms 17.218 ms 17.271 ms
4 c3550-2.istop.com (66.11.167.167) 17.799 ms 18.566 ms 17.499 ms
5 gw-orano.torontointernetxchange.net (198.32.245.40) 16.879 ms 16.276 ms 18.730 ms
6 DIST2-TORO-GE1-2.IP.orion.on.ca (66.97.16.126) 25.325 ms 18.378 ms 18.358 ms
7 DIST1-KNTN-GE1-1.IP.orion.on.ca (66.97.16.89) 23.341 ms 23.005 ms 23.065 ms
8 DIST1-OTWA-GE1-2.IP.orion.on.ca (66.97.16.73) 27.140 ms 29.891 ms 25.480 ms
9 CARLETON-ORION-RNE.DIST1-OTWA.IP.orion.on.ca (66.97.23.142) 25.451 ms 25.632 ms 25.070 ms
10 * * *
11 * * *
12 * * *
13 smeagol.ncf.ca (134.117.136.48) 26.446 ms 26.141 ms 49.798 ms
14 smeagol.ncf.ca (134.117.136.48) 29.656 ms 29.725 ms 47.745 ms
15 smeagol.ncf.ca (134.117.136.48) 59.054 ms 41.532 ms 26.486 ms

From the information above, you can see that I take a short cut through
the 'Toronto Internet Exchange', leaving my trip to smeagol.ncf.ca (hop 13)
ringing in at 26, 26, and 49 milliseconds - barely noticeable from a typing
perspective. We're talking about 1/40th to 1/20th of a second. You couldn't
blink that fast.

This is why I suspect the probably is further upstream than Carleton, but
as you can see, I can't test that theory. :-)

I'm not sure what clients are available for Windows. I've never needed to
do a traceroute from Windows before. It isn't a UNIX or Linux-only feature,
though, so I suspect free software to do it can be found on the Internet,
perhaps tucows.net? I once had a graphical traceroute program under Windows
that came with my Exceed X-Server for Windows that worked well. It showed
icons for each hop. I've seen other graphical clients that I remember being
geographically aware of the IP addresses, allowing it to map the traceroute
onto a 3 dimensional-looking globe with land masses clearly shown. You
could see the actual route your packets were taking.

I'm usually too lazy to find that software though - the command line utility
that I show output from above works just fine. :-)

mark
--
***@mielke.cc / ***@ncf.ca / ***@nortel.com __________________________
. . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ |
| | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them...

http://mark.mielke.cc/
Dennis Brown
2005-06-16 20:13:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Mielke
$ traceroute telnet.ncf.ca
tracert telnet.ncf.ca
Tracing route to smeagol.ncf.ca [134.117.136.48]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 9 ms 8 ms 8 ms ottawa-hs-206-191-39-1.d-ip.magma.ca [206.191.39.1]
2 7 ms 7 ms 9 ms 64.26.173.98
3 22 ms 25 ms 24 ms 206.191.0.98
4 10 ms 9 ms 8 ms border0-faste0-0.magma.ca [209.217.64.50]
5 16 ms 17 ms 14 ms telecom-ottawa-ottix.ottix.net [198.32.235.40]
6 9 ms 9 ms 10 ms AL-GSR-GigE0-1-100.telecomottawa.net [142.46.200.18]
7 10 ms 9 ms 9 ms AL-7304-GigE2.telecomottawa.net [142.46.200.1]
8 16 ms 17 ms 17 ms CarletonU-gw.telecomottawa.net [142.46.196.131]
9 * * * Request timed out.
10 * * * Request timed out.
11 * * * Request timed out.
12 19 ms 19 ms 19 ms smeagol.ncf.ca [134.117.136.48]
13 35 ms 68 ms 40 ms smeagol.ncf.ca [134.117.136.48]
14 * * * Request timed out.
15 * * * Request timed out.
16 * * * Request timed out.
17 * ^C
--
Dennis Brown
Graeme Beckett
2005-06-16 20:33:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Byrne
Post by Mark Mielke
Post by M.L. Dante
Sometimes I get fast telnet access to the NCF, but other times, like
We need your traceroute information to have any idea at all! :-(
How can we obtain this info?
In Windows open a command prompt window and at the prompt type tracert and a
destination (like tracert telnet.ncf.ca). In XP I believe they hide the
command prompt under accessories. MAC OS X should also come with some sort of
traceroute program.

Graeme
M.L. Dante
2005-06-16 22:10:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Mielke
If it is just telnet users - you need to use traceroute to isolate the
provider that is causing you the problems. This is something you can do
yourself to determine for yourself who the likely culprit is. It might
be NCF - but I haven't seen information to show that it is, and my own
experience disagrees with you.
since it's not possible to have two windows open at the same time -- I
don't really have a "window" - I have a screen - you can't traceroute
while this is going on.

Besides, I don't know how to do that.

And I doubt that it will "prove" anything when you consider that during
the same session the speed may be normal for a while, and then it may slow
down almost to a stop, and then speed up again.

mld
Post by Mark Mielke
Cheers,
mark
--
. . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ |
| | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them...
http://mark.mielke.cc/
Graeme Beckett
2005-06-17 14:59:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by M.L. Dante
since it's not possible to have two windows open at the same time -- I
don't really have a "window" - I have a screen -
<<< NCF Toolbox Multi-Windows / Multi-Fenetres du Coffre outils LCN >>>
(go screen) Mail comments to: aa610

1 HELP: About the Toolbox / AIDE: Informations...

Multi-Window Screen Documentation:

2 Short "getting started" help file -- PLEASE read this first!
3 Short examples of window commands -- PLEASE read this second!
4 Trimmed-down Unix manual page; unformatted
5 Full-size Unix manual page; paginated with underlining

6 Configure and execute the Multi-Window (Unix) Screen program
7 Fast start Screen using saved configuration (set using above)

------------------------------------------------
h=Help, x=Exit FreeNet, p=previous, u=up, m=main

Your Choice ==> 6

*** You have chosen '@' as your prefix character to switch windows.
*** Is this the correct prefix character?
Post by M.L. Dante
(yes/no) >>> y
***
*** Your prefix character '@' has been saved.
*** Now starting the Multi-Window Screen program using prefix '@'.
*** For examples of commands type: @ e
***
*** NCF Multi-Windows Screen Started -IAN! aa610 ***


Window #0: Screen Choice ++>


EXAMPLES of commands in the Multi-Window Screen program.

In these examples, your chosen prefix character is assumed to be the
single character CTRL-A (^A), abbreviated here as C-a. The space
between the C-a and the following character is for readability only; do
not type it. All commands are exactly two characters long. The first
character is your chosen prefix character and the second does the work:

See the key bindings (help): C-a ?
See the examples file: C-a e
See the short help file: C-a L
See the very long help file: C-a D

Create a new window: C-a C-c
Kill the current window: C-a C-k (exiting a menu using 'x' works too)
Swap last two windows: C-a C-a (two prefix characters in a row)
See list of active windows: C-a C-w
Switch to window #0: C-a 0
Switch to window #5: C-a 5

Abandon all the windows without saving anything and quickly terminate
the screen program, returning you to Free-Net where you started: C-a x



Window #0: Screen Choice ++> x



...Exiting this window....


[screen is terminating]
***
*** The Multi-Window Screen program has exited.
*** You are now back in FreeNet where you started.
*** Mail comments to Ian! Allen at userid aa610.
***
Mark Mielke
2005-06-16 16:58:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by William R. Watt
First, you are sharing PPP access with all the colour graphics web
browsers. They can slow down response. I used dailup NCF PPP
access last night to check a website and response was very slow.
I believe this to be misleading. The bandwidth is shared by all users,
whether they are text users, or PPP users, or even telnet users from
another ISP. We're all connecting over the same network to the same
machine, when we connect to FreePort. PPP would appear slower, as more
data is being transferred over more data connections. Any 'slowness'
might be much more obvious from a web connection, than a non-web
connection, depending on the sites being accessed.
Post by William R. Watt
Second, you might dialup some other ISP and telnet from there to
FreePort. Response could be faster or slower than dialing up the
NCF with PPP access.
I would be surprised if access out over the net, jumping through 10+
different hops, usually at least passing through Toronto, if not
New York, back into Ottawa, through Carleton, and then finally to NCF
would ever be reliably faster than your connectiong through the phone
lines to NCF's office, over a local network to the FreePort machine.
Perhaps bandwidth would be higher over the Internet, as the dial-up
modems are restricted to whatever negotiated speed they decided upon,
however, the actual latency should be similar, or worse for the people
using some other ISP. There would need to be a misconfiguration on the
modem server for it to ever be noticeably slower.
Post by William R. Watt
Third, you might have a high speed connection to some ISP which
would improve telnet response to FreePort.
Nope - not in terms of latency at least... "High speed" is a measure
of bandwidth, not necessarily latency. You can download, at least in
theory, in the Megabits per second, however, if these bits were send
in small chunks, as they are with a telnet connection, it is not
efficient at all.
Post by William R. Watt
In my opinion the best way to access FreePort is to dial up with
VT100 terminal access instead of PPP. You do not share response
time with all the PPP colour graphics web browsers and gargantuan
file downloaders. Uner Windows OS, terminal access would most
Yes, you do share bandwidth, and therefore response time. You are
connected to the same modem server, and you have a telnet connection
(opened for you on your behalf by the modem server) to the same FreePort
machine over the same network.

There could be problems - but I would look at the *route* that the packets
are taking to determine where the problem is. In the past, I've had
problems with one of the major upstream providers (backbones?) that
Carleton uses. With my currently ISP, I skip past this upstream provider,
and I see very low latency. If any of you telnet providers were to provide
us with traceroute information, as I originally requested, a better
understanding of where the problem is could be arrived at.

So far, there is little or nothing to go on. It would be unsafe to come
up with a conclusion on so little evidence. There is likely at least a
dozen different computers, owned by several different companies between
you telnet users (I'm one of you), and NCF. Blaming NCF may be the least
effective route. There may be nothing NCF can do about it.

Of course, if it is an upstream provider, and that provider could be
identified, then progress could be made. Or if we knew that it was NCF,
and which part of NCF, then progress could be made. Right now we have
nothing.

mark
--
***@mielke.cc / ***@ncf.ca / ***@nortel.com __________________________
. . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ |
| | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them...

http://mark.mielke.cc/
William R. Watt
2005-06-16 17:59:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Beckett
Post by William R. Watt
If someone wants to list things to check I can try on this computer (whose
power supply is starting to smell of ozone and might not last much longer.
:( )
Check the power supply fan for functionality. Also the CPU fan if it has one.
Ah yes, the CPU fan. I rigged up a probe by sticking a plastic drinking
straw up one nostril. No ozone odour from the CPU fan.

The power supply fan used to be noisy but it's gone quiet the past few
days. It's turning okay. The smell of ozone seems to be comming
from the power supply.

Thanks.



--
William B. Jenness
2005-06-16 23:45:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by William R. Watt
Post by Graeme Beckett
Post by William R. Watt
If someone wants to list things to check I can try on this computer (whose
power supply is starting to smell of ozone and might not last much longer.
:( )
Check the power supply fan for functionality. Also the CPU fan if it has one.
Ah yes, the CPU fan. I rigged up a probe by sticking a plastic drinking
straw up one nostril. No ozone odour from the CPU fan.
The power supply fan used to be noisy but it's gone quiet the past few
days. It's turning okay. The smell of ozone seems to be comming
from the power supply.
Thanks.
You could always open it up and clean out the decades of built up dust,
replace the fan and/or check the fuses.
Brendan R. Wehrung
2005-06-17 05:38:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by William R. Watt
I haven't noticed any slow response lateley with daily VT100 access to
FreePort via Procomm or Bitcom.
I'm on an old 486 computer now (9 am Thursday) running Windows 95 and some
sort of telnet program whose name and parentage are unkown to me. The
response time is good. Sorry I can't identify the distiguishing feature
which cases some telnet sessionsto run slow. I dial 520-1135 in VT100 mode.
If someone wants to list things to check I can try on this computer (whose
power supply is starting to smell of ozone and might not last much longer.
:( )
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned
There will be people who will heap derision on the above, but Mr. Watt
makes a serious point. Not everybody has resources, and the old NCF
wouldn't have thought twice about striving to meet them, if possible. But
that was Free-Net Think, highly unfashionable now. The new NCF being
discussed is concerned (obsessed?) with being new and up to date, despite
the fact that this "niche" is more than adqudately filled by all sorts of
providers. I can't speak for Canadian prices since I live in Michigan,
but I use Net-Zero, which runs a nationwide network for $10 a month (US).
Is that the NCF ideal? I assume there is a Canadian euqivalent and they
are your "competitors". Can you even beat their price(s) and why do you
want to, given that NCF may lose corporate and government support (as well
as a home at Carleton) if it morphs into another low-cost provider.

Brendan


--
M.L. Dante
2005-06-17 09:35:14 UTC
Permalink
Brendan has a good point about the Carleton home for NCF.

And this morning the system stopped for a spell after accepting my name
and password, before it finally decided to resume. At the moment it is
fine and fast.

mld
Post by Brendan R. Wehrung
Post by William R. Watt
I haven't noticed any slow response lateley with daily VT100 access to
FreePort via Procomm or Bitcom.
I'm on an old 486 computer now (9 am Thursday) running Windows 95 and some
sort of telnet program whose name and parentage are unkown to me. The
response time is good. Sorry I can't identify the distiguishing feature
which cases some telnet sessionsto run slow. I dial 520-1135 in VT100 mode.
If someone wants to list things to check I can try on this computer (whose
power supply is starting to smell of ozone and might not last much longer.
:( )
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned
There will be people who will heap derision on the above, but Mr. Watt
makes a serious point. Not everybody has resources, and the old NCF
wouldn't have thought twice about striving to meet them, if possible. But
that was Free-Net Think, highly unfashionable now. The new NCF being
discussed is concerned (obsessed?) with being new and up to date, despite
the fact that this "niche" is more than adqudately filled by all sorts of
providers. I can't speak for Canadian prices since I live in Michigan,
but I use Net-Zero, which runs a nationwide network for $10 a month (US).
Is that the NCF ideal? I assume there is a Canadian euqivalent and they
are your "competitors". Can you even beat their price(s) and why do you
want to, given that NCF may lose corporate and government support (as well
as a home at Carleton) if it morphs into another low-cost provider.
Brendan
--
Mark Mielke
2005-06-17 12:40:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by M.L. Dante
Brendan has a good point about the Carleton home for NCF.
I'm not sure. I don't think Brendan has asked Carleton, nor do I think
Brendan has considered that nothing "new" is truly being talked about.
NCF is already primarily offering PPP services to the Internet with the
generous support of Carleton. NCF is already expecting members to
cover their own service expenses (otherwise we would be broke). It's
a little bit fear, uncertainty, and doubt. For me, the fear, uncertainty,
and doubt, surrounds NCF continuing in its current form, and has been so
since the first day that I was elected as a director. The current model
doesn't work without a great deal of pushing and shoving - neither of
which should be necessary for an organization with as fine ideals as
we have had, and I believe we still have.

For certain, FreePort is not the future of NCF - so, if Brendan is
speaking about old hardware such as VT100 terminals, I challenge him
to produce a business case that would prove that there even exists
such a market, that could cover even a fraction of the expenses that
it would create (and currently creates) for us to serve it. My VT100
died about 10 years ago. I don't believe they make them any more. Old
hardware? How old? 10 year old hardware can run PPP and a web browser.

There are several options, the most popular including installing a
specialized distribution of Linux that uses light-weight graphical
components. For the more 'elite', solution such as Linux provide a
command line interface before they provide a graphical user interface.

I'm use Linux + SLRN right now from home. I have a 'text' window that I
am sending this local from. It's even better than you are using, in that
my keystrokes are all local, in a local editor, so 1) I'm not tying up
NCF resources or network bandwidth, and 2) I don't experience periodic
mid-keystroke pauses.

I don't agree at all that FreeNet needs to support non-standard protocols
or server-side software, to allow people to use entry level, or aging
hardware to access NCF. In order for NCF to be relevant, and cost-effective,
it needs to center on a single set of services. This single set of services
can be PPP for dialup and Web for applications without writing off the
current members of our organization.
Post by M.L. Dante
And this morning the system stopped for a spell after accepting my name
and password, before it finally decided to resume. At the moment it is
I believe I may have noticed slow initial connect times yesterday, and
today, and NCF was completely inaccessible for a short time yesterday,
and much of the day before. You suggested before that a traceroute wouldn't
be necessary, as the behaviour seems variable. Unless we can determine
where the problem is, though, no effort is likely to be useful. One result
doesn't have to be authoritative. The benefit of being able to run traceroute
yourself is that you can run it dozens of times in a row, on your own
schedule, at a time that you think it might happen. There is no auditting of
alteration of the information before it is presented to you. What you are
getting is a sample of the data, under your control. Unbiased. :-)

I will try to run traceroute periodically to see if I can find the problem.
I don't believe I'm experiencing the problem you are, though, so I don't
believe my efforts will be fruitful.

Good luck,
mark
--
***@mielke.cc / ***@ncf.ca / ***@nortel.com __________________________
. . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ |
| | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them...

http://mark.mielke.cc/
William R. Watt
2005-06-17 14:43:58 UTC
Permalink
The problem could be the way computer time is shared on the NCF's system.
Various components of systems software can be set up to give large chunks
uninterruptable time to resource intensive processes like file transfers
while making the little guys like us interactive text users wait in line.
I don't know the priorities are set up on the NCF system or on the
Internet. Since the Interent is packet switched it should not be a problem
as I assume everyone's packets get the same priority. (System control
packets would have higher priority.)

Techies can adjust priorities to maximize the work a computer system can
do. Often they try to minimize the average wait time but in doing so they
can increase some wait times, most often the longest. Less adventurous
techies can just go with the "industry standard" priorities which come
with the software and evolve over successive releases and make some
services slower. I used to have quite a problem with this as a manager of
a scientific user group trying to share a computer with a lot of
adminstrative users. We eventualy got our own minicomputer over the
objections of the techies and our service and employee productivity went
up.

I could be that the NCF techies are optimizig the system to serve colour
graphics web browsers and big file transfers. It could be the
purveyors of computer systems are doing it in their new releases.

--
Mark Mielke
2005-06-17 15:54:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by William R. Watt
I could be that the NCF techies are optimizig the system to serve colour
graphics web browsers and big file transfers. It could be the
purveyors of computer systems are doing it in their new releases.
Or it could be that you are speaking out of your .... hmm.

Yes, Carleton does traffic shaping. Specifically, though, I believe they
de-prioritize large downloads (the opposite of what you are saying), and
block ports known to be used for sending illegal content such as music
files, movie files, and so on. The goal is that chattery protocols, such
as telnet, require low latency, and should be given priority, as they
don't take up much space. Think of it like the express lane in a grocery
store. The more bandwidth intensive protocols don't tend to benefit from
low latency, and the data can be transmitted in bulk at a lower priority.
Again, this is all the exact opposite of what you seem to be suggesting.
Any good network works this way. Doing the opposite would seriously harm
the network. Even my router at home, before my ADSL modem, does this sort
of traffic shaping, as although one usually considers ADSL as "high speed",
in fact, it is susceptible to these same problems. If somebody is sending
me a 2.0 Mbyte file, I don't want it to interfere with my telnet/ssh
connections, and if I'm sending out a 2.0 Mbyte file, I want my keystrokes
to be sent out first, otherwise, my packets wait in line before being
sent, which would suck.

I know of no instance where telnet packets are being de-prioritizied.

I highly doubt that the route between the dial-up modems and the NCF
FreePort computer has any traffic shaping at all. The network should
be plenty fast enough to take any load that can be given to it, from
the relatively slow modem transfers. Even at maximum speed, we're
talking 5 Kbyte/s times a few hundred. This is everybody transferring
at full speed, non-stop, a very unlikely occurrence. It would just barely
fill a 10Mbit/s network connection, and I would hope that NCF is using
100Mbit/s networks (no information here - but I have 100Mbit/s in my
house, so it isn't an unreasonable expectation). If you want to know,
you could ask, instead of surmising. After all - you aren't a techie,
so don't pretend to be one.

For those that dial-up, there may be an issue with connecting to modems
not in NCF's primary dial-up pool. If, for example, you are dialling in
to Mitel, then my understanding is that your packets to NCF FreePort would
be travelling over the Internet to reach the NCF. (I never received a clear
understanding of how these alternate modem pools work, but I can't see it
working any other way - Mitel certainly doesn't have a direct link to NCF)

mark
--
***@mielke.cc / ***@ncf.ca / ***@nortel.com __________________________
. . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ |
| | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them...

http://mark.mielke.cc/
Graeme Beckett
2005-06-17 16:20:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Mielke
Yes, Carleton does traffic shaping. Specifically, though, I believe they
de-prioritize large downloads (the opposite of what you are saying), and
block ports known to be used for sending illegal content such as music
files, movie files, and so on.
Some ports are blocked that viruses use.

I'm not so sure that Carleton blocks still blocks ports used by those file
sharing programs. The last time I remember anyone asking a question about file
sharing and blocked ports was back in 2001(?) and I don't remember anyone
asking on the web board board discussion thingy. The lack of discussion on the
topic and the popularity of file sharing would have me surmize those ports are
now open. Then there are those people (possibly only one person) who seem to
be connected 24 +/- hours a day...

Modem Usage Statistics
For the 24-hour period ending at 4am on
Friday June 17, 2005

PPP Text Both
21.8 10.1 21.8 Maximum total connect time of a user (hours)
11.3 3.6 11.3 Maximum total peak-period time of a user (hours)

I wonder if Glenn or Andre know if the common file sharing ports are open or
closed. Any idea what ports they use?

Graeme
Graeme Beckett
2005-06-17 15:35:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Mielke
today, and NCF was completely inaccessible for a short time yesterday,
and much of the day before.
Internet traffic seems to have been flowing without interuption.
http://www.ncf.ca/ncf/home/system/webResponseViaModems.jsp

Perhaps there was a routing or server issue between you and the NCF.

Graeme
Mark Mielke
2005-06-17 15:44:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Beckett
Post by Mark Mielke
today, and NCF was completely inaccessible for a short time yesterday,
and much of the day before.
Internet traffic seems to have been flowing without interuption.
http://www.ncf.ca/ncf/home/system/webResponseViaModems.jsp
Perhaps there was a routing or server issue between you and the NCF.
Could be - but it hit Paul Tomblin as well, so it wasn't isolated to my
ISP, for example.

mark
--
***@mielke.cc / ***@ncf.ca / ***@nortel.com __________________________
. . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ |
| | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them...

http://mark.mielke.cc/
Graeme Beckett
2005-06-17 15:52:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Mielke
Post by Graeme Beckett
Post by Mark Mielke
today, and NCF was completely inaccessible for a short time yesterday,
and much of the day before.
Internet traffic seems to have been flowing without interuption.
http://www.ncf.ca/ncf/home/system/webResponseViaModems.jsp
Perhaps there was a routing or server issue between you and the NCF.
Could be - but it hit Paul Tomblin as well, so it wasn't isolated to my
ISP, for example.
I didn't see any NCF services take a dive Thursday. CPU on Frodo was down, but
it isn't supposed to be running any core services. That's the test bucket.
]http://www.ncf.ca/ncf/mrtg/ca/ncf/frodo/frodo-uptime.html

Graeme
Mark Mielke
2005-06-17 15:58:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Beckett
Post by Mark Mielke
Post by Graeme Beckett
Post by Mark Mielke
today, and NCF was completely inaccessible for a short time yesterday,
and much of the day before.
Internet traffic seems to have been flowing without interuption.
http://www.ncf.ca/ncf/home/system/webResponseViaModems.jsp
Perhaps there was a routing or server issue between you and the NCF.
Could be - but it hit Paul Tomblin as well, so it wasn't isolated to my
ISP, for example.
I didn't see any NCF services take a dive Thursday. CPU on Frodo was down, but
it isn't supposed to be running any core services. That's the test bucket.
]http://www.ncf.ca/ncf/mrtg/ca/ncf/frodo/frodo-uptime.html
Where would we find stats for Carleton's network? I should have followed
my own advice and done a traceroute when it was down... :-)

I don't believe NCF itself was down. People seemed to say that they could
dial-up to NCF without issue. It was from the outside - Paul and I saw
it down much of Wednesday I believe, and I saw it done for a bit on
Thursday (no more accurate data - I am not normally concerned by these
things, so I didn't take any action).

mark
--
***@mielke.cc / ***@ncf.ca / ***@nortel.com __________________________
. . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ |
| | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them...

http://mark.mielke.cc/
Graeme Beckett
2005-06-17 16:24:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Mielke
Post by Graeme Beckett
Post by Mark Mielke
Post by Graeme Beckett
Post by Mark Mielke
today, and NCF was completely inaccessible for a short time yesterday,
and much of the day before.
Internet traffic seems to have been flowing without interuption.
http://www.ncf.ca/ncf/home/system/webResponseViaModems.jsp
Perhaps there was a routing or server issue between you and the NCF.
Could be - but it hit Paul Tomblin as well, so it wasn't isolated to my
ISP, for example.
I didn't see any NCF services take a dive Thursday. CPU on Frodo was down, but
it isn't supposed to be running any core services. That's the test bucket.
]http://www.ncf.ca/ncf/mrtg/ca/ncf/frodo/frodo-uptime.html
Where would we find stats for Carleton's network?
http://temagami.carleton.ca/CCS/internet/mrtg/internet/index.html

They don't seem to have as much stats as they did a couple of years ago.

Graeme
M.L. Dante
2005-06-17 21:19:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Mielke
doesn't have to be authoritative. The benefit of being able to run traceroute
yourself is that you can run it dozens of times in a row, on your own
schedule, at a time that you think it might happen. There is no auditting of
I can't run traceroute. I tried both "traceroute" and "go traceroute" at
the prompt and both are illegal.

At any rate, the system is VERY slow right now, and getting worse and worse.
I'm outta here until later when it may be better.

mld
Post by Mark Mielke
alteration of the information before it is presented to you. What you are
getting is a sample of the data, under your control. Unbiased. :-)
I will try to run traceroute periodically to see if I can find the problem.
I don't believe I'm experiencing the problem you are, though, so I don't
believe my efforts will be fruitful.
Good luck,
mark
--
. . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ |
| | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them...
http://mark.mielke.cc/
Mark Mielke
2005-06-17 21:42:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by M.L. Dante
Post by Mark Mielke
doesn't have to be authoritative. The benefit of being able to run traceroute
yourself is that you can run it dozens of times in a row, on your own
schedule, at a time that you think it might happen. There is no auditting of
I can't run traceroute. I tried both "traceroute" and "go traceroute" at
the prompt and both are illegal.
You need to run it on your own machine that you are executing telnet from.
Instead of telnet, traceroute. From Windows, it's apparently tracert.

What are you running anyways? I've tried to piece together a picture from
tidbits you've left, but the times in between the tidbits are such that
I've forgotten more than I remember. :-)
Post by M.L. Dante
At any rate, the system is VERY slow right now, and getting worse and worse.
I'm outta here until later when it may be better.
I'm getting excellent response times - just tried telnet just to check,
so it'll take some effort to find the cause. It isn't NCF itself. It's
somewhere along the way. As I mentioned, I had complete loss of network
between my machine at home and NCF - I could access all the various
sites I normally do without problems, similar to what you said, but NCF
was completely inaccessible. Not nearly as frequent as you - it only
happened twice - for quite some time Wednesday, and for a short time on
Thursday. It could be related. But we would need to figure out how far
the packets are getting. It's not something that could be resolved at
NCF, by NCF staff, unless they had received many reports from many users,
and some pattern could be discerned.

Good luck,
mark
--
***@mielke.cc / ***@ncf.ca / ***@nortel.com __________________________
. . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ |
| | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them...

http://mark.mielke.cc/
M.L. Dante
2005-06-18 03:19:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Mielke
Post by M.L. Dante
I can't run traceroute. I tried both "traceroute" and "go traceroute" at
the prompt and both are illegal.
You need to run it on your own machine that you are executing telnet from.
Instead of telnet, traceroute. From Windows, it's apparently tracert.
I don't have telnet on my own machine. I dial into my local library
system and use their telnet to get to the NCF.
Post by Mark Mielke
What are you running anyways? I've tried to piece together a picture from
MS-DOS 6.22. My communications program is PROCOMM.
Post by Mark Mielke
Post by M.L. Dante
At any rate, the system is VERY slow right now, and getting worse and worse.
I'm outta here until later when it may be better.
I'm getting excellent response times - just tried telnet just to check,
You posted this about 20 minutes after I logged off in frustration.

Right now *I'm* having excellent response time, also. I guess everyone
else is off partying since it's Friday night. ;)
Post by Mark Mielke
so it'll take some effort to find the cause. It isn't NCF itself. It's
somewhere along the way. As I mentioned, I had complete loss of network
between my machine at home and NCF - I could access all the various
sites I normally do without problems, similar to what you said, but NCF
was completely inaccessible. Not nearly as frequent as you - it only
happened twice - for quite some time Wednesday, and for a short time on
Thursday. It could be related. But we would need to figure out how far
the packets are getting. It's not something that could be resolved at
NCF, by NCF staff, unless they had received many reports from many users,
I appreciate your efforts. I'm sure most of us appreciate them (I started
to say we all do, but then remembered there's at least one person who does
not).

Uh, oh. It's just now starting to slow up again!

mld <who is going to try and read what was skipped before but may log out
if it gets much slower>
Mark Mielke
2005-06-18 14:01:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by M.L. Dante
Post by Mark Mielke
You need to run it on your own machine that you are executing telnet from.
Instead of telnet, traceroute. From Windows, it's apparently tracert.
I don't have telnet on my own machine. I dial into my local library
system and use their telnet to get to the NCF.
Post by Mark Mielke
What are you running anyways? I've tried to piece together a picture from
MS-DOS 6.22. My communications program is PROCOMM.
Ah. That makes sense now. That would be a little scary to me, in that I
suspect libraries would be reconsidering having their own dial-in services
in recent years. In Ottawa, I believe we haven't had this service in many
years - perhaps even a decade. (But then, we have an NCF, so perhaps the
situation isn't comparable)
Post by M.L. Dante
Post by Mark Mielke
Post by M.L. Dante
At any rate, the system is VERY slow right now, and getting worse and worse.
I'm outta here until later when it may be better.
I'm getting excellent response times - just tried telnet just to check,
You posted this about 20 minutes after I logged off in frustration.
Right now *I'm* having excellent response time, also. I guess everyone
else is off partying since it's Friday night. ;)
...
I appreciate your efforts. I'm sure most of us appreciate them (I started
to say we all do, but then remembered there's at least one person who does
not).
Uh, oh. It's just now starting to slow up again!
There may be hope. I can't reproduce it - but one of the other volunteers
was able to reproduce it, and document in the form of traceroute output.
It should help the NCF staff know where to look. His numbers showed
31 milliseconds to hop 13, and then ~1000 ms (one whole second) at
the first router than responded to the traceroute packet after hop 13.
This would exactly match what you have been saying.

An initial guess is that those who route through
CarletonU-gw.telecomottawa.net to get to NCF are the ones seeing the
problem. I don't route through that address, so this would be why I don't
see what you are seeing. Many more people these days will be routing
through the relatively cheaper Toronto Internet Exchange (TORIX),
including many or most broadband users. I'm still seeing response times
of 27 ms (1/37th of a second) through TORIX. Years ago when I routed
through telecom Ottawa, I recall having problems with poor latency (response
time, or rather, the time for a round trip packet). It might be something
that Carleton or NCF could fix. Cross your fingers. :-)

Good luck,
mark
--
***@mielke.cc / ***@ncf.ca / ***@nortel.com __________________________
. . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ |
| | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them...

http://mark.mielke.cc/
Graeme Beckett
2005-06-18 20:29:46 UTC
Permalink
2 30 ms 28 ms 30 ms 64.230.197.114
3 28 ms 27 ms 27 ms 64.230.228.49
4 28 ms 27 ms 26 ms 64.230.241.209
5 29 ms 27 ms 28 ms 64.230.228.241
6 33 ms 32 ms 33 ms rtp627382rts [64.230.204.165]
7 32 ms 32 ms 32 ms 64.230.242.94
8 32 ms 34 ms 32 ms 64.230.229.46
9 33 ms 32 ms 79 ms 64.230.219.30
10 33 ms 34 ms 33 ms 142.46.128.6
11 38 ms 39 ms 38 ms 142.46.128.14
12 51 ms 51 ms 52 ms tol-gsr.telecomottawa.net [142.46.130.10]
13 50 ms 52 ms 52 ms AL-7304-GigE2.telecomottawa.net [142.46.200.1]
14 51 ms 52 ms 55 ms CarletonU-gw.telecomottawa.net
[142.46.196.131]
15 * * * Request timed out.
16 * * * Request timed out.
17 * * * Request timed out.
18 1252 ms 995 ms 1091 ms smeagol.ncf.ca [134.117.136.48]
19 1079 ms 983 ms 1048 ms smeagol.ncf.ca [134.117.136.48]
20 *


=====================

2 30 ms 28 ms 29 ms 64.230.197.114
3 27 ms 28 ms 27 ms 64.230.228.49
4 27 ms 27 ms 28 ms 64.230.241.209
5 27 ms 27 ms 29 ms 64.230.228.241
6 33 ms 33 ms 32 ms rtp627382rts [64.230.204.165]
7 34 ms 33 ms 33 ms 64.230.242.94
8 33 ms 33 ms 33 ms 64.230.229.46
9 33 ms 32 ms 32 ms 64.230.219.30
10 34 ms 34 ms 33 ms 142.46.128.6
11 37 ms 37 ms 37 ms 142.46.128.14
12 51 ms 49 ms 50 ms tol-gsr.telecomottawa.net [142.46.130.10]
13 53 ms 52 ms 51 ms AL-7304-GigE2.telecomottawa.net [142.46.200.1]
14 52 ms 51 ms 51 ms CarletonU-gw.telecomottawa.net
[142.46.196.131]

15 * * * Request timed out.
16 * * * Request timed out.
17 * * * Request timed out.
18 1058 ms 1095 ms 1041 ms smeagol.ncf.ca [134.117.136.48]
19 1167 ms 1151 ms 1125 ms smeagol.ncf.ca [134.117.136.48]
20 * * * Request timed out.
21 *
William R. Watt
2005-06-18 15:39:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by M.L. Dante
I don't have telnet on my own machine. I dial into my local library
system and use their telnet to get to the NCF.
Which public library would that be?

Up until amaglamation of all the public libraries in the Ottawa area in
2000 we had dialup terminal access to the online catalogues in the Nepean,
Kanata, and Ottawa library systems that I know of, but not past that to
the Internet.

You could be getting slow response from the public library system. The
response at the compters in the branches of the current Ottawa library
system is often slow and unreliable. The whole system is scheduled to be
shut down for three days next week.

Not long ago some of the computers at our local branch were not connecting
until I got down on the floor and pushed in a loose connector on a router.:)

--
Brendan R. Wehrung
2005-06-18 05:59:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Mielke
Post by M.L. Dante
Brendan has a good point about the Carleton home for NCF.
I'm not sure. I don't think Brendan has asked Carleton, nor do I think
Brendan has considered that nothing "new" is truly being talked about.
NCF is already primarily offering PPP services to the Internet with the
generous support of Carleton. NCF is already expecting members to
cover their own service expenses (otherwise we would be broke). It's
a little bit fear, uncertainty, and doubt. For me, the fear, uncertainty,
and doubt, surrounds NCF continuing in its current form, and has been so
since the first day that I was elected as a director. The current model
doesn't work without a great deal of pushing and shoving - neither of
which should be necessary for an organization with as fine ideals as
we have had, and I believe we still have.
Everything in this reply is what'w wrong with "NewThink".
Post by Mark Mielke
For certain, FreePort is not the future of NCF - so, if Brendan is
speaking about old hardware such as VT100 terminals, I challenge him
to produce a business case that would prove that there even exists
such a market, that could cover even a fraction of the expenses that
it would create (and currently creates) for us to serve it. My VT100
died about 10 years ago. I don't believe they make them any more. Old
hardware? How old? 10 year old hardware can run PPP and a web browser.
Let's start with NCF being a "business case". As I pointed out before,
thee are lots of cheap ISPs in North America, both local and national. If
that's all that NCF aspires to be under your directorship (since you waved
it in our faces), why should it call itself a public service, the
"service" being redefined as "cheap ISP"? In my home I have an 8088-based
computer (which I run once in a while to keep the battery alive simply
becaue there might be something lurking on the hard drive I missed), an
orphaned Win '95 computer (ditto), one running Win '98 (back-up,
dreadfully slow, but with programs I didn't replace) and one using XP
Home--all with contemporary processors up to a Pentium 4. I don't need
FreePort except that I like the simple (you may call it simple-minded)
interface. But I use what ought to be orphaned 300 MHz computers at the
library (they can't afford to replace them) and there have to be others on
the continent in the same fix, able to connect, but not able to do much
because of old equipment. Hyperterminal (what I use, v. 6.3) and almost
all other programs emulate VT100 without actually being it, but some come
closer and others. YOur business model assumes they can go fish, I guess.
You remind me of web designers who build fancy web pages on Front Page
using a fast computer who forget, never knew or don't care that their
pages have to be read by people around the world who may have old or non
IE browsers and slow connections. I'm bringing this up in connection with
telnet and FrePort becuase even when almost nothing else works on a
slowed-down library connection (they share bandwidth with other libraries
over a T-1 line) I can breeze along with all-text Freeport. That ought to
mean something to you.
Post by Mark Mielke
There are several options, the most popular including installing a
specialized distribution of Linux that uses light-weight graphical
components. For the more 'elite', solution such as Linux provide a
command line interface before they provide a graphical user interface.
Oh, very good! Learn Linux in order to be able to use NCF...how could I
ahve missed that option?
Post by Mark Mielke
I'm use Linux + SLRN right now from home. I have a 'text' window that I
am sending this local from. It's even better than you are using, in that
my keystrokes are all local, in a local editor, so 1) I'm not tying up
NCF resources or network bandwidth, and 2) I don't experience periodic
mid-keystroke pauses.
I don't agree at all that FreeNet needs to support non-standard protocols
or server-side software, to allow people to use entry level, or aging
hardware to access NCF. In order for NCF to be relevant, and cost-effective,
it needs to center on a single set of services. This single set of services
can be PPP for dialup and Web for applications without writing off the
current members of our organization.
Ah, the business model rears its head again. Relevant to paying a staff,
cost-effective in giving little service as possible, and PPP for the
Ottawa area. Who gives a damn about Yellowknife or wherever anybody else
lives? Let them set up their own cheap ISP, right?

Why not try some "re-think" instead of "new-think". FreePort/telnet may be
pain in your programmers' butt, but somebody likes it. I'm sure you will
not trot out the "nobody's using it" arguement and Mr. Watt will acuse you
of skewing statistics, but so be it. And do ask Carleton if they really
want to be known a competitor with commercial entities. We'd all like to
know, before you start cancelling services.

Brendan
Post by Mark Mielke
Post by M.L. Dante
And this morning the system stopped for a spell after accepting my name
and password, before it finally decided to resume. At the moment it is
I believe I may have noticed slow initial connect times yesterday, and
today, and NCF was completely inaccessible for a short time yesterday,
and much of the day before. You suggested before that a traceroute wouldn't
be necessary, as the behaviour seems variable. Unless we can determine
where the problem is, though, no effort is likely to be useful. One result
doesn't have to be authoritative. The benefit of being able to run traceroute
yourself is that you can run it dozens of times in a row, on your own
schedule, at a time that you think it might happen. There is no auditting of
alteration of the information before it is presented to you. What you are
getting is a sample of the data, under your control. Unbiased. :-)
I will try to run traceroute periodically to see if I can find the problem.
I don't believe I'm experiencing the problem you are, though, so I don't
believe my efforts will be fruitful.
Good luck,
mark
--
. . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ |
| | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them...
http://mark.mielke.cc/
--
Mark Mielke
2005-06-18 06:53:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brendan R. Wehrung
Why not try some "re-think" instead of "new-think". FreePort/telnet may be
pain in your programmers' butt, but somebody likes it. I'm sure you will
not trot out the "nobody's using it" arguement and Mr. Watt will acuse you
of skewing statistics, but so be it. And do ask Carleton if they really
want to be known a competitor with commercial entities. We'd all like to
know, before you start cancelling services.
FreePort flies in the face of everything NCF originally stood for.

"We'd all like to know" isn't true. In fact, it is you, and a very small
few who would like to know. The whole point of the member survey is to
determine who in fact wishes to know, and what they want.

The only question that remains is - are you willing to accept the will of
the majority? Or will you stubbornly ignore the simple possibility that
you may be a minority?

I'm willing to put my word behind it. If the membership survey shows that
the membership is not in favour of a switch, I intend to resign as a
board member, as I would be forced to realize that my opinions do not
represent the membership. On the other hand, if the membership survey
shows that the membership is in favour of a switch, I will take this as
a vote of confidence.

The question for you is - are you willing to put your words behind it?
Are you willing to step back and re-analyze your position, if the survey
shows you to be incorrect and a minority?

Or are you just going to feel comfortable continuously accusing the NCF
of being run by some sort of dictatorship (you used this *exact* word in
your last post), and claim that you aren't being represented?

Are you just talk?

mark
--
***@mielke.cc / ***@ncf.ca / ***@nortel.com __________________________
. . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ |
| | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them...

http://mark.mielke.cc/
Brendan R. Wehrung
2005-06-19 07:13:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Mielke
Post by Brendan R. Wehrung
Why not try some "re-think" instead of "new-think". FreePort/telnet may be
pain in your programmers' butt, but somebody likes it. I'm sure you will
not trot out the "nobody's using it" arguement and Mr. Watt will acuse you
of skewing statistics, but so be it. And do ask Carleton if they really
want to be known a competitor with commercial entities. We'd all like to
know, before you start cancelling services.
FreePort flies in the face of everything NCF originally stood for.
What an assinine statement. For years FreePort WAS NCF, simply because
there wasn't anything else free and simple. The medium grew up around
FreePort and eventually overshadowed it, just as cheap commercial entities
have overtaken the dream of an inexpensive community network, which is
more or less what you are proposing. Wasn't the original idea that the
Internet sould belong to everybody, across Canada (and in many cases in
the US as well), not just the few with paid access? And it remained
because there were some who didn't grow with the media, for financial or
technical reasons. Not that I am any fan of C-suite (if it still exists)
but it could have served the text/GUI function of FreePort, but was never
tried alongside the (then) dominant) interface. It may have been sheer
inertia, or its faults were manifest. Your idea seems to be to dump any
concept of a national community to play at being a local ISP, part of the
concept being that all are NOT equal, yet they have a right (if they pay
their token support) to access. Why do you suppose library access is a
topic that keeps coming up? That's all some have.
Post by Mark Mielke
"We'd all like to know" isn't true. In fact, it is you, and a very small
few who would like to know. The whole point of the member survey is to
determine who in fact wishes to know, and what they want.
You mean you don't intend to ask Carleton, just do what YOU want?
Autocracy is not dead.
Post by Mark Mielke
The only question that remains is - are you willing to accept the will of
the majority? Or will you stubbornly ignore the simple possibility that
you may be a minority?
Certainly I'm a minority. A good many Canadians are contemptuous of my
President for having exactly the same idea, that the majority is always
right, and he gets to choose who is in the majority.
Post by Mark Mielke
I'm willing to put my word behind it. If the membership survey shows that
the membership is not in favour of a switch, I intend to resign as a
board member, as I would be forced to realize that my opinions do not
represent the membership. On the other hand, if the membership survey
shows that the membership is in favour of a switch, I will take this as
a vote of confidence.
So, in the end, apres mois, le deluge? My concept of public service is a
little different, that I'll soldier on even if my ego is buised.
Post by Mark Mielke
The question for you is - are you willing to put your words behind it?
Are you willing to step back and re-analyze your position, if the survey
shows you to be incorrect and a minority?
I'd have no choce byt to vote with my feet, because I can't afford the
line rates to use an Ottawa dial-up.

Brendan
Post by Mark Mielke
Or are you just going to feel comfortable continuously accusing the NCF
of being run by some sort of dictatorship (you used this *exact* word in
your last post), and claim that you aren't being represented?
Are you just talk?
mark
--
. . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ |
| | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them...
http://mark.mielke.cc/
--
Mark Mielke
2005-06-19 13:29:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brendan R. Wehrung
Post by Mark Mielke
Post by Brendan R. Wehrung
Why not try some "re-think" instead of "new-think". FreePort/telnet may be
pain in your programmers' butt, but somebody likes it. I'm sure you will
not trot out the "nobody's using it" arguement and Mr. Watt will acuse you
of skewing statistics, but so be it. And do ask Carleton if they really
want to be known a competitor with commercial entities. We'd all like to
know, before you start cancelling services.
FreePort flies in the face of everything NCF originally stood for.
What an assinine statement. For years FreePort WAS NCF, simply because
there wasn't anything else free and simple. The medium grew up around
FreePort and eventually overshadowed it, just as cheap commercial entities
...
No. NCF was originally based on FreePort. NCF wasn't FreePort. The community
was NCF. Don't make the mistake of assuming that the software makes the
people. Software has a life cycle, and dies.
Post by Brendan R. Wehrung
Post by Mark Mielke
"We'd all like to know" isn't true. In fact, it is you, and a very small
few who would like to know. The whole point of the member survey is to
determine who in fact wishes to know, and what they want.
You mean you don't intend to ask Carleton, just do what YOU want?
Autocracy is not dead.
I never said what you are saying - but to respond to you - do you, the member,
believe that Carleton should influence the decision? If the membership says
they want FreePort, and Carleton says they want nothing to do with FreePort -
should FreePort be dumped merely on Carleton's say so? They are a partner -
they are not the owners of NCF. You are wrong.
Post by Brendan R. Wehrung
Post by Mark Mielke
The only question that remains is - are you willing to accept the will of
the majority? Or will you stubbornly ignore the simple possibility that
you may be a minority?
Certainly I'm a minority. A good many Canadians are contemptuous of my
President for having exactly the same idea, that the majority is always
right, and he gets to choose who is in the majority.
Are you agreeing that you shouldn't be able to unfairly influence the
decision, or are you claiming that 7000+ members of NCF don't count, because
they have an opinion different from yours?
Post by Brendan R. Wehrung
Post by Mark Mielke
I'm willing to put my word behind it. If the membership survey shows that
the membership is not in favour of a switch, I intend to resign as a
board member, as I would be forced to realize that my opinions do not
represent the membership. On the other hand, if the membership survey
shows that the membership is in favour of a switch, I will take this as
a vote of confidence.
So, in the end, apres mois, le deluge? My concept of public service is a
little different, that I'll soldier on even if my ego is buised.
The reasoning for me is very clear. If NCF doesn't change, NCF will die.
I don't intend to stay on the sinking ship, if the rudder has been taken
from me. What would be the point? If you can prove to me that I don't
represent the membership, then I will move out of the way, and allow you
to succeed without me. I don't believe you will - but maybe I'm wrong.
Maybe you can. Maybe you can prove me wrong. I won't be unhappy to see it.

But I will be spending my spare time on some other project.
Post by Brendan R. Wehrung
Post by Mark Mielke
The question for you is - are you willing to put your words behind it?
Are you willing to step back and re-analyze your position, if the survey
shows you to be incorrect and a minority?
I'd have no choce byt to vote with my feet, because I can't afford the
line rates to use an Ottawa dial-up.
Post by Mark Mielke
Or are you just going to feel comfortable continuously accusing the NCF
of being run by some sort of dictatorship (you used this *exact* word in
your last post), and claim that you aren't being represented?
Are you just talk?
So, then, we come to the real truth. It isn't about Carleton's opinion,
or the business case, or the majority. It's about you, and your desire to
continue accessing NCF using the FreePort text interface.

Which is fair, but I somewhat wish you would stick to this, and ensure that
you are counted. Mary also falls into this category. Instead of 1, that makes
2. If you can find other, perhaps you can represent yourself - as a minority,
but as a numbered minority, which is harder to ignore.

Mike already suggested an alternative - if it did come between choosing
FreePort or not (which it has not, despite all the FUD - dropping FreePort
hasn't been on the table in months, if not years). If it did come down to
this, NCF could continue to have FreePort maintained by volunteers with
such persuasions, either on NCF equipment, or completely external to NCF.

I could run it on my own box at home, if it came down to it. I don't happen
to agree that it has the best interface that is available in 2005, but in
terms of possibilities - there is nothing preventing it from being hosted
elsewhere, or by other people. And if hosted by people with this particularly
persuasion, you can be your own majority. Only have members who actually use
it, or want it to be used, and make decisions without having to care for a
majority with different persuasions.

Cheers,
mark
--
***@mielke.cc / ***@ncf.ca / ***@nortel.com __________________________
. . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ |
| | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them...

http://mark.mielke.cc/
William R. Watt
2005-06-19 17:09:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brendan R. Wehrung
I'd have no choce byt to vote with my feet, because I can't afford the
line rates to use an Ottawa dial-up.
I'd happily pay $5 a month extra on my telephone bill to have dialup
text/PPP Interent access. I like the simple reliable telephone service I
get from Bell and would appreciate having the same simple reliable service
for the Internet. The CRTC alread let Bell raise our basic rate from $16
TO $22 to cover higher traffic due to dialup Internet access and becasue
long distance charges were subsidizing local calls before deregulation.
Before I joined the FreeNet I hardly used the 'phone but now I use it an
hour or two a day. Before I was overpaying. Now I'm getting fair value.
The CRTC is there to protect consumers. As owners fo the NCF we are
supposed to be able to protect our onw interests but it isn't woerking out
that way. A few people have taken over control and run it to suit
themselves with our donations.

OTOH our use of the Interet could easily be covered by charging telelmarketers
and volume emailers.
--
Mark Mielke
2005-06-19 18:59:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by William R. Watt
As owners fo the NCF we are
supposed to be able to protect our onw interests but it isn't woerking out
that way. A few people have taken over control and run it to suit
themselves with our donations.
Prove this claim or stop making it.

Prove that the owners of NCF (not you - you are one in 8000+) want what you
want. If you can prove it, I'll gladly submit to your wishes. If not, stop
lying.

mark
--
***@mielke.cc / ***@ncf.ca / ***@nortel.com __________________________
. . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ |
| | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them...

http://mark.mielke.cc/
M.L. Dante
2005-06-21 10:23:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Mielke
Post by William R. Watt
As owners fo the NCF we are
supposed to be able to protect our onw interests but it isn't woerking out
that way. A few people have taken over control and run it to suit
themselves with our donations.
Prove this claim or stop making it.
Prove that the owners of NCF (not you - you are one in 8000+) want what you
want. If you can prove it, I'll gladly submit to your wishes. If not, stop
lying.
For me, the problem is not that some of us have wishes contrary to the
apparent long-term plans of the board -- although I suspect the minority
is larger than thought, as many probably do not read these forums or
the NCF web pages and so don't know what's going on -- my problem is twofold:

1. Watt's insistence that rather than just retaining the type of access
we, the minority who eschew GUI, prefer, as a part of the NCF for those
who desire that option, the entire system must be run according to his
wishes, demands, and blueprint.

2. Watt's paranoia concerning the honesty of those who are actually
keeping the NCF alive and together.

mld
William R. Watt
2005-06-21 10:54:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by M.L. Dante
1. Watt's insistence that rather than just retaining the type of access
we, the minority who eschew GUI, prefer, as a part of the NCF for those
who desire that option, the entire system must be run according to his
wishes, demands, and blueprint.
Wrong. I insist that the NCF be run according the wishes of
its owners, the members, not according to a handfull of
technically-oriented people who just want to be at the bleeding edge of
technology. I want members to be able to vote on what gets done but the
peopel who have taken control of the organization don't want to put the
future or even the present to a vote of the members.

When matters are put to an open discussion followed by a vote I will
certainly put forward my vision of what the NCF should be doing, but
I want everyone else to be able to do, and be encouraged to do
by our board of directors, likewise.
Post by M.L. Dante
2. Watt's paranoia concerning the honesty of those who are actually
keeping the NCF alive and together.
It's not paranoia. It's compliance with the charter of the organization.
Read the by-laws.


--
William R. Watt
2005-06-21 14:40:18 UTC
Permalink
At 9:47 am today (Tuesday) I was getting slow interractive response while
trying to type in the search string on a Google search page under MS
Explorer 6 (PPP access at 56k) on a 200MHz Intel computer.

I'm not sure if this is local to my computer. I don't know if transmission
to the NCF is suspended until I click on the "search" button on the Google
page. I don't think it would be on my computer because it was only running
the one program and I wasn't getting slow repsonse at any other time. One
other possiblity is that some hacker has taken control of my computer and
was using it for something else while I was trying to type in and correct
the search string.



--
Mark Mielke
2005-06-21 15:58:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by William R. Watt
At 9:47 am today (Tuesday) I was getting slow interractive response while
trying to type in the search string on a Google search page under MS
Explorer 6 (PPP access at 56k) on a 200MHz Intel computer.
If your web browser is running locally, then all keyboard 'echo' is local.
If it takes a while from the point that your type your key, until your
local browser and/or Windows renders your character on the screen and
advances the cursor, the problem is entirely on your machine.

There is a google search page that updates the numbers of matches as you
type, but as I suspect you are using the main google front end, and not
their beta (http://www.google.com/webhp?complete=1&hl=en), I don't see
this being your problem.
Post by William R. Watt
I'm not sure if this is local to my computer. I don't know if transmission
to the NCF is suspended until I click on the "search" button on the Google
page. I don't think it would be on my computer because it was only running
the one program and I wasn't getting slow repsonse at any other time. One
other possiblity is that some hacker has taken control of my computer and
was using it for something else while I was trying to type in and correct
the search string.
It isn't that it is suspended - rather, there is nothing to send or receive.

With PPP, you are on the network. You send out requests, and get responses.
Your machine decides when to send requests out and when to wait for
responses. Generally, typing isn't considered a request. The exception is
applications such as telnet, where keystrokes are relayed to the server,
and processed on the server before being 'echo'd back to you.

mark
--
***@mielke.cc / ***@ncf.ca / ***@nortel.com __________________________
. . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ |
| | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them...

http://mark.mielke.cc/
Andre Lieven
2005-06-24 02:36:04 UTC
Permalink
A new glitch. Besides dropping out on me, after freezing up, a while
ago today, after popping back into a newsgroup, and reading forward
some, I found that, upon leaving that group, and coming back in, the
articles that I had just read were unmarked. About 20-30 posts.

So, in addition to telnet itself, the mark as read function is
wonky, at best, busted, at worst.

Andre

--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
The Man Prayer, Red Green.
William R. Watt
2005-06-24 13:52:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andre Lieven
A new glitch. Besides dropping out on me, after freezing up, a while
ago today, after popping back into a newsgroup, and reading forward
some, I found that, upon leaving that group, and coming back in, the
articles that I had just read were unmarked. About 20-30 posts.
This could be because your "marked as read" file is full.
Try "go edit" and use the text editor to remove some newsgroups you don't
read any more, or use the newsreader to mark all the articles in
newsgroups "read" and that will reduce the size of the file.

--
William R. Watt
2005-06-24 14:06:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by William R. Watt
Post by Andre Lieven
A new glitch. Besides dropping out on me, after freezing up, a while
ago today, after popping back into a newsgroup, and reading forward
some, I found that, upon leaving that group, and coming back in, the
articles that I had just read were unmarked. About 20-30 posts.
This could be because your "marked as read" file is full.
Try "go edit" and use the text editor to remove some newsgroups you don't
choose #4 - list of all newsgroups file
Post by William R. Watt
read any more, or use the newsreader to mark all the articles in
newsgroups "read" and that will reduce the size of the file.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned
--
Andre Lieven
2005-06-24 20:04:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by William R. Watt
Post by William R. Watt
Post by Andre Lieven
A new glitch. Besides dropping out on me, after freezing up, a while
ago today, after popping back into a newsgroup, and reading forward
some, I found that, upon leaving that group, and coming back in, the
articles that I had just read were unmarked. About 20-30 posts.
This could be because your "marked as read" file is full.
Why would it be full ? The newsfeed drops older articles, as new ones
come in. And, in eight years of Freenet telneted Usenetting, this has
never happened before, and right now, its only happening on one newsgroup
out of all that are on my favlist.
Post by William R. Watt
Post by William R. Watt
Try "go edit" and use the text editor to remove some newsgroups you don't
I did that; It made no difference.
Post by William R. Watt
choose #4 - list of all newsgroups file
Post by William R. Watt
read any more, or use the newsreader to mark all the articles in
newsgroups "read" and that will reduce the size of the file.
Well, I'll try that. Still, this is very weird.

Andre

--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
The Man Prayer, Red Green.
Andre Lieven
2005-06-25 05:58:10 UTC
Permalink
Supplementary.
Post by Andre Lieven
Post by William R. Watt
Post by William R. Watt
Post by Andre Lieven
A new glitch. Besides dropping out on me, after freezing up, a while
ago today, after popping back into a newsgroup, and reading forward
some, I found that, upon leaving that group, and coming back in, the
articles that I had just read were unmarked. About 20-30 posts.
This could be because your "marked as read" file is full.
Why would it be full ? The newsfeed drops older articles, as new ones
come in. And, in eight years of Freenet telneted Usenetting, this has
never happened before, and right now, its only happening on one newsgroup
out of all that are on my favlist.
Post by William R. Watt
Post by William R. Watt
Try "go edit" and use the text editor to remove some newsgroups you don't
I did that; It made no difference.
Post by William R. Watt
choose #4 - list of all newsgroups file
Post by William R. Watt
read any more, or use the newsreader to mark all the articles in
newsgroups "read" and that will reduce the size of the file.
Well, I'll try that. Still, this is very weird.
It worked normally, most of today, but about ten minutes ago,
stopped working again.

Very, very weird. Bloody annoying, too, as yet another glitch
to have to work around.

Andre
--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
The Man Prayer, Red Green.
Brendan R. Wehrung
2005-06-25 06:19:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by William R. Watt
Post by Andre Lieven
A new glitch. Besides dropping out on me, after freezing up, a while
ago today, after popping back into a newsgroup, and reading forward
some, I found that, upon leaving that group, and coming back in, the
articles that I had just read were unmarked. About 20-30 posts.
This could be because your "marked as read" file is full.
Try "go edit" and use the text editor to remove some newsgroups you don't
read any more, or use the newsreader to mark all the articles in
newsgroups "read" and that will reduce the size of the file.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned
This happened to me and cleared up by itself. I did remove a couple of
dead groups, but they had nothing in them anyway, and the problem
persisted after they were gone, to clear up spontaneously a couple of days
later.

Brendan

--
Mark Mielke
2005-06-25 17:07:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brendan R. Wehrung
Post by William R. Watt
This could be because your "marked as read" file is full.
Try "go edit" and use the text editor to remove some newsgroups you don't
read any more, or use the newsreader to mark all the articles in
newsgroups "read" and that will reduce the size of the file.
This happened to me and cleared up by itself. I did remove a couple of
dead groups, but they had nothing in them anyway, and the problem
persisted after they were gone, to clear up spontaneously a couple of days
later.
Alternatively, you can use slrn at "go xx" "5" "2". There are many better
text-based news reader client available than the FreePort nr, and slrn is
one that I recommend. Support for MIME, article threading being the most
important advances. Reliability over FreePort nr in that SLRN has been
maintained by its developers, is certainly a feature as well. Regarding
fixes to FreePort nr - they are unlikely to be forthcoming. Nobody has
managed to fix out what is wrong with the code (I took a look myself and
didn't find the problem), and until people do, the likelihood of a fix is
very doubtful.

Cheers,
mark
--
***@mielke.cc / ***@ncf.ca / ***@nortel.com __________________________
. . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ |
| | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them...

http://mark.mielke.cc/
Andre Lieven
2005-06-29 02:44:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Mielke
Post by Brendan R. Wehrung
Post by William R. Watt
This could be because your "marked as read" file is full.
Try "go edit" and use the text editor to remove some newsgroups you don't
read any more, or use the newsreader to mark all the articles in
newsgroups "read" and that will reduce the size of the file.
This happened to me and cleared up by itself. I did remove a couple of
dead groups, but they had nothing in them anyway, and the problem
persisted after they were gone, to clear up spontaneously a couple of days
later.
Alternatively, you can use slrn at "go xx" "5" "2". There are many better
text-based news reader client available than the FreePort nr, and slrn is
one that I recommend. Support for MIME, article threading being the most
important advances. Reliability over FreePort nr in that SLRN has been
maintained by its developers, is certainly a feature as well. Regarding
fixes to FreePort nr - they are unlikely to be forthcoming. Nobody has
managed to fix out what is wrong with the code (I took a look myself and
didn't find the problem), and until people do, the likelihood of a fix is
very doubtful.
Well, an additional problem is cropping up; Telnet crashes, after a
short total freeze. Like 5 minutes ago.

Plus, a half hour ago, neither 1135 or 9013 were doing anything at all.

So, theres more thats broken, and it really ought to be fixed.

Andre

--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
The Man Prayer, Red Green.
Howard Eisenberger
2005-06-29 11:24:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andre Lieven
Post by Mark Mielke
Alternatively, you can use slrn at "go xx" "5" "2". There are many better
text-based news reader client available than the FreePort nr, and slrn is
one that I recommend.
Well, an additional problem is cropping up; Telnet crashes, after a
short total freeze. Like 5 minutes ago.
I have no reason to telnet to Freeport, so I wouldn't know, but are
you sure that it is telnet that "crashes" and not your PPP connection?
Post by Andre Lieven
Plus, a half hour ago, neither 1135 or 9013 were doing anything at all.
So, theres more thats broken, and it really ought to be fixed.
PPP is working fine for me as it normally does.

Jun 29 03:56:02 micron pppd[2341]: pppd 2.4.3 started by root, uid 0
Jun 29 03:56:22 micron chat[2343]: ATDT5201135^M^M
Jun 29 03:56:22 micron chat[2343]: CONNECT
...
Jun 29 06:20:40 micron pppd[2341]: Terminating on signal 15
Jun 29 06:20:40 micron pppd[2341]: Connect time 144.3 minutes.
Jun 29 06:20:40 micron pppd[2341]: Sent 1501355 bytes, received 12470445 bytes.
Jun 29 06:20:41 micron pppd[2341]: sent [LCP TermReq id=0x2 "User request"]
Jun 29 06:20:41 micron pppd[2341]: rcvd [LCP TermAck id=0x2]
Jun 29 06:20:41 micron pppd[2341]: Connection terminated.
Jun 29 06:20:42 micron pppd[2341]: Exit.

I consider myself a pretty heavy user of the NCF modems (mostly
after midnight, although I download email and news during the day),
and haven't experienced any major problems lately. Maybe I'm just
lucky.

Howard E.
Andre Lieven
2005-06-29 14:06:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Howard Eisenberger
Post by Andre Lieven
Post by Mark Mielke
Alternatively, you can use slrn at "go xx" "5" "2". There are many better
text-based news reader client available than the FreePort nr, and slrn is
one that I recommend.
Well, an additional problem is cropping up; Telnet crashes, after a
short total freeze. Like 5 minutes ago.
I have no reason to telnet to Freeport, so I wouldn't know, but are
you sure that it is telnet that "crashes" and not your PPP connection?
Yes, because, after the telnet crashes, I can still do any other
function without looging out, and getting a new connection, from
check ncf webmail, to doing Netscape stuff.
Post by Howard Eisenberger
Post by Andre Lieven
Plus, a half hour ago, neither 1135 or 9013 were doing anything at all.
So, theres more thats broken, and it really ought to be fixed.
PPP is working fine for me as it normally does.
Jun 29 03:56:02 micron pppd[2341]: pppd 2.4.3 started by root, uid 0
Jun 29 03:56:22 micron chat[2343]: ATDT5201135^M^M
Jun 29 03:56:22 micron chat[2343]: CONNECT
...
Jun 29 06:20:40 micron pppd[2341]: Terminating on signal 15
Jun 29 06:20:40 micron pppd[2341]: Connect time 144.3 minutes.
Jun 29 06:20:40 micron pppd[2341]: Sent 1501355 bytes, received 12470445 bytes.
Jun 29 06:20:41 micron pppd[2341]: sent [LCP TermReq id=0x2 "User request"]
Jun 29 06:20:41 micron pppd[2341]: rcvd [LCP TermAck id=0x2]
Jun 29 06:20:41 micron pppd[2341]: Connection terminated.
Jun 29 06:20:42 micron pppd[2341]: Exit.
I consider myself a pretty heavy user of the NCF modems (mostly
after midnight, although I download email and news during the day),
and haven't experienced any major problems lately. Maybe I'm just
lucky.
Could be. At the times in question, 1135 and 9013 did AbZero. While
the Mitel line was fine. All in a span of about five minutes.

And, at the moment, the one newsgroup not marking as read hasn't
re-occured for a couple of days. <shrug>

Andre

--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
The Man Prayer, Red Green.
Brendan R. Wehrung
2005-07-01 08:02:35 UTC
Permalink
Mark as read hasn't been working in one news group for the last couple of
nights, but is showing up again tonight. Maybe it's the weather.

Brendan
--
Dennis Brown
2005-07-01 15:03:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brendan R. Wehrung
Mark as read hasn't been working in one news group for the last couple of
nights, but is showing up again tonight. Maybe it's the weather.
It's not the weather. FreePort never worked properly from day one.
The Cleveland FreeNet and Case Western Reserve University, which created
the code, abandoned it back in 1999, rather than try to make the rats'
nest compliant with Y2K standards. You can read and weep at:

http://www.ofcn.org/whois/ben/Free-Nets/CFN/FreePort.html
--
Dennis Brown
Dwight Williams
2005-07-03 13:21:59 UTC
Permalink
So why is it still useful to me if it's as dead as you say?

--
Dwight Williams(***@freenet.carleton.ca) -- Orleans, Ontario, Canada
Personal Web Page: http://www.ncf.ca/~ad696/
Geoff Gigg
2005-07-03 13:41:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dwight Williams
So why is it still useful to me if it's as dead as you say?
Necrophilia?

Geoff
Dwight Williams
2005-07-04 19:04:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geoff Gigg
Post by Dwight Williams
So why is it still useful to me if it's as dead as you say?
Necrophilia?
Killfile sound effect: PLONK


--
Dwight Williams(***@freenet.carleton.ca) -- Orleans, Ontario, Canada
Personal Web Page: http://www.ncf.ca/~ad696/
Mark Mielke
2005-07-03 15:18:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dwight Williams
So why is it still useful to me if it's as dead as you say?
Just out of curiosity - as you seem to be very strongly opinionated
(Dwight showed up at the last board meeting and attempted to express
these opinions) on this matter...

What about FreePort, in 2005, is so useful? What about FreePort, in 2005,
justifies the special modem server setup, and maintenance (at least the
effort to keep it running, as much of it is too hard to maintain) of
volunteers or donation dollars, the majority of the donation dollars
coming from people who have access to PPP.

If it is newsgroups, I don't agree. I don't login to FreePort anymore,
and haven't for almost two years now. I post news using SLRN, but from
my home machine. The newsgroups are completely accessible, and with much
better newsgroup reading clients.

If it is email, I don't agree. NCF has commercial quality mail servers
running using standard protocols that have existed for two decades.

If it is browsing information, I don't agree. The web pages have more
capability in terms of information presentation. One could argue that
they are currently not fully utilized - but this can be changed, or
improved. Pictures don't replace words, but they do an excellent job
of making the reading experience more pleasing, and additional
formatting allows greater detail to be shown on a single page with
a minimal amount of confusion.

If it is IRC, that has been dead for 3+ years. People prefer to access
messenger software that allows them to speak to their non-NCF friends.
MSN, Yahoo, any of the public IRC servers, etc. are preferred.

What's left? To me, the ONLY thing dial-up FreePort offers are:

1) Comfort. The more traditional of people than invested effort in
learning this interface, who are unwilling to invest additional
effort into keeping up to date with technology. I have no sympathy
for this. To me, NCF is about introducing technology, not ensuring
that people can stagnant themselves.

2) Extremely low end hardware, or those who prefer to under-utilize
their hardware, or who are unaware that their hardware is being
under-utilized. Many scenarios in here, however, I don't believe
at all, that in 2005, people cannot get access to a computer that
supports PPP. People have been offloading their costs to NCF for
more than a decade. Instead of spending $60 on a used computer
that supports PPP, they'll ask NCF to pay employee salaries, and
invest volunteer time into maintaining an antiquated system? Where
is the business case here? There is another cost - by splitting
employee and volunteer effort, employees and volunteers are held
back from fully developing the new system. We'd have to go over the
math, however, I'm suspecting, that in some cases, people could
choose to, for one year, spend their recommended $60/year donation
on a used computer, instead of donation to NCF, and if we could get
rid of FreePort, the overall result to NCF would be an improvement.
The question here is - is it more valuable to spend $60 on the member
getting a used computer? Or on NCF staff salaries to maintain the old
system?

3) The perception that by NCF hosting the services, and only provided
'thin client' access, that the home computer is more secure, as it
is not directly accessible over the network, nor are the applications
executed on the home computer. For this one, I do believe in this -
however, due to the general failure of NCF's thin client project, I
don't think that a significant number of members actually share this
perception. I think maybe a few dozen people have this perception,
and however justified it may be, it is not sufficient unless generally
shared and used.

Personally, I think most everybody supporting FreePort fall into category 1,
and perhaps partially into category 2. Category 3 is not widely understood,
and those who believe they fall into this category, I strongly believe to
have heard of this concept, and tacked into onto their repetoire of excuses
not to migrate away from FreePort.

There is a love for FreePort. It was there first. It's just software, though,
and it doesn't deserve your love.

mark
--
***@mielke.cc / ***@ncf.ca / ***@nortel.com __________________________
. . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ |
| | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them...

http://mark.mielke.cc/
M.L. Dante
2005-07-03 16:45:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Mielke
What about FreePort, in 2005, is so useful? What about FreePort, in 2005,
Rather than trying to cram myself into one of your procrustean categories,
I'll just tell you, once again, why I prefer FreePort.

I can telnet in for my e-mail from anywhere. AND elm is a blessing.

When nobody is making it slow up (as is happening right this moment,
grrrr), it is faster than Cable or DSL, and I am using a 2400 exterior
modem and an old telephone line. (My apartment house was built in the
1950's)

I don't use this "thin client" you seem to like so well, nor do I use PPP.

And I don't have to worry about viruses!!!!!

I'm sure there's more, but it's so frustrating when the lag time between
keystrokes is so long - it was great this morning, but lousy righ now -
that I'm just gonna log off and surf elsewhere for a while.

mld
Post by Mark Mielke
justifies the special modem server setup, and maintenance (at least the
effort to keep it running, as much of it is too hard to maintain) of
volunteers or donation dollars, the majority of the donation dollars
coming from people who have access to PPP.
If it is newsgroups, I don't agree. I don't login to FreePort anymore,
and haven't for almost two years now. I post news using SLRN, but from
my home machine. The newsgroups are completely accessible, and with much
better newsgroup reading clients.
If it is email, I don't agree. NCF has commercial quality mail servers
running using standard protocols that have existed for two decades.
If it is browsing information, I don't agree. The web pages have more
capability in terms of information presentation. One could argue that
they are currently not fully utilized - but this can be changed, or
improved. Pictures don't replace words, but they do an excellent job
of making the reading experience more pleasing, and additional
formatting allows greater detail to be shown on a single page with
a minimal amount of confusion.
If it is IRC, that has been dead for 3+ years. People prefer to access
messenger software that allows them to speak to their non-NCF friends.
MSN, Yahoo, any of the public IRC servers, etc. are preferred.
1) Comfort. The more traditional of people than invested effort in
learning this interface, who are unwilling to invest additional
effort into keeping up to date with technology. I have no sympathy
for this. To me, NCF is about introducing technology, not ensuring
that people can stagnant themselves.
2) Extremely low end hardware, or those who prefer to under-utilize
their hardware, or who are unaware that their hardware is being
under-utilized. Many scenarios in here, however, I don't believe
at all, that in 2005, people cannot get access to a computer that
supports PPP. People have been offloading their costs to NCF for
more than a decade. Instead of spending $60 on a used computer
that supports PPP, they'll ask NCF to pay employee salaries, and
invest volunteer time into maintaining an antiquated system? Where
is the business case here? There is another cost - by splitting
employee and volunteer effort, employees and volunteers are held
back from fully developing the new system. We'd have to go over the
math, however, I'm suspecting, that in some cases, people could
choose to, for one year, spend their recommended $60/year donation
on a used computer, instead of donation to NCF, and if we could get
rid of FreePort, the overall result to NCF would be an improvement.
The question here is - is it more valuable to spend $60 on the member
getting a used computer? Or on NCF staff salaries to maintain the old
system?
3) The perception that by NCF hosting the services, and only provided
'thin client' access, that the home computer is more secure, as it
is not directly accessible over the network, nor are the applications
executed on the home computer. For this one, I do believe in this -
however, due to the general failure of NCF's thin client project, I
don't think that a significant number of members actually share this
perception. I think maybe a few dozen people have this perception,
and however justified it may be, it is not sufficient unless generally
shared and used.
Personally, I think most everybody supporting FreePort fall into category 1,
and perhaps partially into category 2. Category 3 is not widely understood,
and those who believe they fall into this category, I strongly believe to
have heard of this concept, and tacked into onto their repetoire of excuses
not to migrate away from FreePort.
There is a love for FreePort. It was there first. It's just software, though,
and it doesn't deserve your love.
mark
--
. . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ |
| | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them...
http://mark.mielke.cc/
Mark Mielke
2005-07-03 17:22:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by M.L. Dante
Post by Mark Mielke
What about FreePort, in 2005, is so useful? What about FreePort, in 2005,
Rather than trying to cram myself into one of your procrustean categories,
I'll just tell you, once again, why I prefer FreePort.
I can telnet in for my e-mail from anywhere. AND elm is a blessing.
I can give you much better than this, simply by letting you telnet into
my box at home. :-)

The only reason I don't open the offer up, is that I could see dozens or
hundreds of people requesting access, and I have no means to control or
support this. You'd get several different text based web browsing clients,
one of which even has preliminary support for JavaScript, and others that
have preliminary support for CSS. The NCF software is *old*. It's hard to
explain how much it sucks without just showing you what better exists. It's
easier to see and feel than read about. :-)
Post by M.L. Dante
When nobody is making it slow up (as is happening right this moment,
grrrr), it is faster than Cable or DSL, and I am using a 2400 exterior
modem and an old telephone line. (My apartment house was built in the
1950's)
I don't use this "thin client" you seem to like so well, nor do I use PPP.
Yep, you do. It's a vt100 emulator, and it is one of the first very popular
thin clients in existence. The idea of a thin client, is that only the
input and output is managed by your client. You type keys, and they are
relayed to the server. It sends screen refreshes back to you. Graphical or
text-based, you are using a thin client right now.

The graphical thin client was generally a failed experiment. Perhaps there
were technical limitations that people didn't like, or perhaps it was poorly
administered, or most likely, people just didn't get it.
Post by M.L. Dante
And I don't have to worry about viruses!!!!!
This is one of the primary benefits of a thin client approach. Centralized
administration. Many large companies around the world use thin client
architectures as a primary service for their employess. Back in the days
of the main frame, every console was a thin client of sorts. New software
is installed and administered server side, and everybody benefits. Having
good software server-side is a necessity.
Post by M.L. Dante
I'm sure there's more, but it's so frustrating when the lag time between
keystrokes is so long - it was great this morning, but lousy righ now -
that I'm just gonna log off and surf elsewhere for a while.
This is about the route the packets take, and the hardware and software
along this path. It appears that you are getting a poor route.

Dennis brought up the idea, again, of alternative text-based thin client
solutions. FreePort doesn't have a future. Although alternatives might.

mark
--
***@mielke.cc / ***@ncf.ca / ***@nortel.com __________________________
. . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ |
| | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them...

http://mark.mielke.cc/
M.L. Dante
2005-07-04 01:00:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Mielke
one of which even has preliminary support for JavaScript, and others that
have preliminary support for CSS. The NCF software is *old*. It's hard to
explain how much it sucks without just showing you what better exists. It's
easier to see and feel than read about. :-)
My preference for e-mail would be Pine. I did have an ISP (freenet) that
used a wonderfully implemented pine. Folders, bouncing, etc.
Post by Mark Mielke
Yep, you do. It's a vt100 emulator, and it is one of the first very popular
thin clients in existence. The idea of a thin client, is that only the
input and output is managed by your client. You type keys, and they are
relayed to the server. It sends screen refreshes back to you. Graphical or
text-based, you are using a thin client right now.
I guess you mean Procomm?

mld
Post by Mark Mielke
The graphical thin client was generally a failed experiment. Perhaps there
were technical limitations that people didn't like, or perhaps it was poorly
administered, or most likely, people just didn't get it.
Post by M.L. Dante
And I don't have to worry about viruses!!!!!
This is one of the primary benefits of a thin client approach. Centralized
Mark Mielke
2005-07-04 01:04:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by M.L. Dante
Post by Mark Mielke
one of which even has preliminary support for JavaScript, and others that
have preliminary support for CSS. The NCF software is *old*. It's hard to
explain how much it sucks without just showing you what better exists. It's
easier to see and feel than read about. :-)
My preference for e-mail would be Pine. I did have an ISP (freenet) that
used a wonderfully implemented pine. Folders, bouncing, etc.
Pine has definately been a user friendly option. There was a time when we
were looking at putting pine on NCF. It didn't come about. Too much
customization required to make it friendly with FreePort... :-(

But yep!
Post by M.L. Dante
Post by Mark Mielke
Yep, you do. It's a vt100 emulator, and it is one of the first very popular
thin clients in existence. The idea of a thin client, is that only the
input and output is managed by your client. You type keys, and they are
relayed to the server. It sends screen refreshes back to you. Graphical or
text-based, you are using a thin client right now.
I guess you mean Procomm?
Procomm would have a vt100 emulator (and perhaps a few others), so yes.

Cheers,
mark
--
***@mielke.cc / ***@ncf.ca / ***@nortel.com __________________________
. . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ |
| | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them...

http://mark.mielke.cc/
Howard Eisenberger
2005-07-05 13:02:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by M.L. Dante
I'll just tell you, once again, why I prefer FreePort.
I can telnet in for my e-mail from anywhere. AND elm is a blessing.
Why the NCF? As far as I know, there are other places one can
telnet/ssh to use elm or some other *nix mailreader. I have a
couple of shell accounts myself.

Concerning BBS software, I believe "Fidotel" runs Wildcat.
They should be easy enough to find on the web.

The Internet BBS that I use runs bbbs on Linux, although I
mostly just use ftp to download QWK packets for Fidonet.

Howard E.

Dennis Brown
2005-07-03 15:52:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dwight Williams
So why is it still useful to me if it's as dead as you say?
The developers have declared it dead, more than five years
ago. BeOS was still useful to me, for four years after Be Inc.
abandoned it, but that doesn't mean it isn't dead, the deveopers
now working for Apple, Palm, and others. All the complaints to
fix this, fix that, why doesn't this work...etc, won't make BeOS
what it could have been. The same is true for FreePort. It
is dead, big time. Get over it. If a decision is made that it is
too time consuming or costly to continue support, then the
Night of the Living FreePort will come to an end. Over in
ncf.board.speakers-corner, I made suggestions for alternatives
to FreePort. Text access is still an attraction to a small
number of users. If it can be provided by a turnkey approach
which is cheap, versatile, and hands-off reliable, it is still
something which could set the NCF apart from commercial ISPs.
--
Dennis Brown
Brendan R. Wehrung
2005-07-04 06:03:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dennis Brown
Post by Dwight Williams
So why is it still useful to me if it's as dead as you say?
The developers have declared it dead, more than five years
ago. BeOS was still useful to me, for four years after Be Inc.
abandoned it, but that doesn't mean it isn't dead, the deveopers
now working for Apple, Palm, and others. All the complaints to
fix this, fix that, why doesn't this work...etc, won't make BeOS
what it could have been. The same is true for FreePort. It
is dead, big time. Get over it. If a decision is made that it is
too time consuming or costly to continue support, then the
Night of the Living FreePort will come to an end. Over in
ncf.board.speakers-corner, I made suggestions for alternatives
to FreePort. Text access is still an attraction to a small
number of users. If it can be provided by a turnkey approach
which is cheap, versatile, and hands-off reliable, it is still
something which could set the NCF apart from commercial ISPs.
--
Dennis Brown
Somebody suggested an alternative that's running as a test, and I didn't
like it. Reminds me of PINE, and it isn't compatible with Hyperterminal,
at least I can't get the terminal setting to hold. Simple works from
anywhere, and that's FreePort. Be happy to try other test programs,
though. What else should NCF be trying?

Brendan
--
Dennis Brown
2005-07-04 13:45:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brendan R. Wehrung
Somebody suggested an alternative that's running as a test, and I didn't
like it. Reminds me of PINE, and it isn't compatible with Hyperterminal,
at least I can't get the terminal setting to hold. Simple works from
anywhere, and that's FreePort. Be happy to try other test programs,
though. What else should NCF be trying?
This is one of the problems with an ISP having to provide all the
client apps on a central server. If every user wants a different app
for newsreading, mail, and text browsing, most are going to be SOL
when the ISP finds it can only afford to support one app for each
function. One user wants PINE; another hates it. Somebody wants
to retain nr, and can't understand why hours wouldn't be spent
trying to fix it, when slrn, which they don't want, may already
be secure and stable. It's significant that the original FreePort
software *never* worked properly even when installed by the
original developers on the system for which it was designed -
the Cleveland FreeNet. The CFN decided to close down in 1999,
rather than try to make FreePort Y2K compatible. By that time,
governments, businesses, and individuals were all starting to
make their own Web sites, so the concept of the CFN as a single
community "portal" interface was already dead. Commercial ISPs
had IP servers that allowed users to set up their own desktops
with the apps they wanted for mail, news, and browsing.

The Wildcat BBS system was originally a FidoNet protocol
text based message host, which has now been rewritten to use
Internet protocols. It's now being promoted as a turnkey
system with news, mail, and browser clients for corporations,
or community networks that want to serve both PPP and text
type connections. The advantage of such a system is that it
is developed, maintained, and enhanced by its authors, not
by the ISP. That takes a load off the ISP sysadmin who can
then focus on strictly maintaining the real time loads and
security of the system, not trying to create new features
or fix long standing bugs in code from 1991. Whether the
Wildcat system would meet NCF needs is something that the
sysadmin and news admin would have to determine. I merely
put the idea forward as one possible solution for retaining
a text based interface, which would help to differentiate
the NCF from other local ISPs. The Wildcat link is below.
[Disclaimer: I have no commercial interest or connection
with the Wildcat developers. No warranties, implied or
expressed...etc. :-)]

http://www.santronics.com/
--
Dennis Brown
Paul Tomblin, NCF News Admin
2005-07-04 14:19:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dennis Brown
or fix long standing bugs in code from 1991. Whether the
Wildcat system would meet NCF needs is something that the
sysadmin and news admin would have to determine. I merely
I have no desire to administer a Windows system. Especially not a toy
like that. Count me out.
--
Paul Tomblin <***@xcski.com> http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"It is my prayer that other Americans will fully realize that to condone the
whittling away of the rights of any one minority group is to pave the way for
us all to lose the guarantees of the Constitution" - Harold L. Ickes
Graeme Beckett
2005-07-04 16:46:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Tomblin, NCF News Admin
Post by Dennis Brown
or fix long standing bugs in code from 1991. Whether the
Wildcat system would meet NCF needs is something that the
sysadmin and news admin would have to determine. I merely
I have no desire to administer a Windows system. Especially not a toy
like that. Count me out.
Not that it matters but if that's the product I think it is and I haven't
followed the thread, Wildcat is a 16-bit DOS application.

Graeme
Mark Mielke
2005-07-04 17:04:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Beckett
Post by Paul Tomblin, NCF News Admin
Post by Dennis Brown
or fix long standing bugs in code from 1991. Whether the
Wildcat system would meet NCF needs is something that the
sysadmin and news admin would have to determine. I merely
I have no desire to administer a Windows system. Especially not a toy
like that. Count me out.
Not that it matters but if that's the product I think it is and I haven't
followed the thread, Wildcat is a 16-bit DOS application.
Not showing particular support for it - but I believe Dennis posted
information that showed that somebody had updated it to be relevant
on the Internet. It doesn't have to be 16-bit DOS.

For those who like to reminesce, I've set up http://logd.chatottawa.com/
for a BBS-style "Legend of the Green Dragon" turn-based open source
replacement of the old-school BBS "Legend of the Red Dragon". It was
re-written from scratch using PHP + MySQL, and works fairly well on the
Internet. I offer this as an example of what can be done.

Personally, I've in favour of a turnkey based solution that uses modern,
well maintained, open source software, as I feel that this is the
technological direction that NCF should be pushing on its members to ensure
that they are up-to-date, and not stagnant on yet another archaic system
with limited or non-existence support. :-)

mark
--
***@mielke.cc / ***@ncf.ca / ***@nortel.com __________________________
. . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ |
| | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them...

http://mark.mielke.cc/
Dennis Brown
2005-07-04 18:59:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Mielke
Personally, I've in favour of a turnkey based solution that uses modern,
well maintained, open source software, as I feel that this is the
technological direction that NCF should be pushing on its members to ensure
that they are up-to-date, and not stagnant on yet another archaic system
with limited or non-existence support. :-)
Here's a link to another *nix based BBS which still seems to be
supported. From the Citadel home page [usual disclaimers, etc.]:

"The Citadel system is extremely versatile. It provides numerous front ends
to present to users, such as a text-based interface, a web-based interface,
and many popular PIM clients using SMTP/POP/IMAP. All of these can be used
simultaneously..."


http://www.citadel.org/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1
--
Dennis Brown
Dennis Brown
2005-07-04 19:46:26 UTC
Permalink
I found a link to a directory full of linux based bbs software
downloads. I downloaded one file to see if the page was still
active and it is. I don't have linux or unix on my system, so
I can't test bbbs_l.zip, but it downloaded okay. The host site,
btw, is the library at the University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill, which has a Linux archives with over 171 Gigs of code and
docs freely available for download.

http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/system/bbs/!INDEX.short.html

glg = gotta love google :-)
--
Dennis Brown
Dennis Brown
2005-07-04 18:55:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Tomblin, NCF News Admin
I have no desire to administer a Windows system. Especially not a toy
like that. Count me out.
One of the problems with Internet BBS systems is that most
are holdovers from legacy code originally developed for DOS, OS/2,
Windows, Mac, Amiga, etc. Finding *nix compatible solutions is more
difficult.

But there is a BBS package called Synchronet which is available
for the *nix variants. Whether this software would meet the security,
reliability, and ease of installation/maintenance requirements is
another story. The link for the unix faq [dated 2005/07/01]
is at:

http://www.synchro.net/docs/sbbsunix.txt

Just clicking on the Vertrauen link on the Synchronet homepage,
[using Opera 8] opened my telnet client and I connected to the demo
BBS host with no problems. Even the colours worked in my telnet
window.
--
Dennis Brown
Brendan R. Wehrung
2005-07-05 06:36:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dennis Brown
Post by Brendan R. Wehrung
Somebody suggested an alternative that's running as a test, and I didn't
like it. Reminds me of PINE, and it isn't compatible with Hyperterminal,
at least I can't get the terminal setting to hold. Simple works from
anywhere, and that's FreePort. Be happy to try other test programs,
though. What else should NCF be trying?
This is one of the problems with an ISP having to provide all the
client apps on a central server. If every user wants a different app
for newsreading, mail, and text browsing, most are going to be SOL
when the ISP finds it can only afford to support one app for each
function. One user wants PINE; another hates it. Somebody wants
to retain nr, and can't understand why hours wouldn't be spent
trying to fix it, when slrn, which they don't want, may already
be secure and stable. It's significant that the original FreePort
software *never* worked properly even when installed by the
original developers on the system for which it was designed -
the Cleveland FreeNet. The CFN decided to close down in 1999,
rather than try to make FreePort Y2K compatible. By that time,
governments, businesses, and individuals were all starting to
make their own Web sites, so the concept of the CFN as a single
community "portal" interface was already dead. Commercial ISPs
had IP servers that allowed users to set up their own desktops
with the apps they wanted for mail, news, and browsing.
The Wildcat BBS system was originally a FidoNet protocol
text based message host, which has now been rewritten to use
Internet protocols. It's now being promoted as a turnkey
system with news, mail, and browser clients for corporations,
or community networks that want to serve both PPP and text
type connections. The advantage of such a system is that it
is developed, maintained, and enhanced by its authors, not
by the ISP. That takes a load off the ISP sysadmin who can
then focus on strictly maintaining the real time loads and
security of the system, not trying to create new features
or fix long standing bugs in code from 1991. Whether the
Wildcat system would meet NCF needs is something that the
sysadmin and news admin would have to determine. I merely
put the idea forward as one possible solution for retaining
a text based interface, which would help to differentiate
the NCF from other local ISPs. The Wildcat link is below.
[Disclaimer: I have no commercial interest or connection
with the Wildcat developers. No warranties, implied or
expressed...etc. :-)]
Can see why:
"Major improvements, many fixes, New Web Server Features"
They may as well be Microslop!

Brendan
Post by Dennis Brown
http://www.santronics.com/
--
Dennis Brown
--
Michael McCord
2005-06-19 22:23:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by William R. Watt
Post by Brendan R. Wehrung
I'd have no choce byt to vote with my feet, because I can't afford the
line rates to use an Ottawa dial-up.
I'd happily pay $5 a month extra on my telephone bill to have dialup
text/PPP Interent access. I like the simple reliable telephone service I
get from Bell and would appreciate having the same simple reliable service
for the Internet. The CRTC alread let Bell raise our basic rate from $16
TO $22 to cover higher traffic due to dialup Internet access and becasue
long distance charges were subsidizing local calls before deregulation.
Before I joined the FreeNet I hardly used the 'phone but now I use it an
hour or two a day. Before I was overpaying. Now I'm getting fair value.
The CRTC is there to protect consumers. As owners fo the NCF we are
supposed to be able to protect our onw interests but it isn't woerking out
that way. A few people have taken over control and run it to suit
themselves with our donations.
OTOH our use of the Interet could easily be covered by charging telelmarketers
and volume emailers.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned
Why don't you act? I'm sure there are still copies of Fido available.
Why not set up a Fido BBS and re-establish a Fido Net? You could run it
yourself and not have to worry about all that pesky graphics stuff.
--
michael
No matter how cynical I get, I'm unable to keep up. :^>
Graeme Beckett
2005-06-16 14:17:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Byrne
Has anyone else been experiencing brutally slow telnet response lately?
Composing a message in Elm there can be a couple seconds between a
keystroke and the cursor moving. I'm telnetting from a very fast
connection.
Rather frustrating.
Coming in on an external connection, I'm finding no discernable lag
while composing this.

Graeme
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